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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    OK but I think there are very few places on earth where lithium is in strong enough concentrations to be mined.
    There are quite a few places - including some in the USA

    But its the old "Catch 22"

    It is expensive - so it does not get used - so there is not enough demand to develop the extraction - so it stays expensive

    This is part of the reason I'm expecting Musk's GigaFactory to have a LOT of impact

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    • #17
      A couple of years back the availability of lithium was a big question. The greens were in a panic due to the lithium shortage (manufactured in their minds) and the right was in a panic because Bolivia (the home of wacko Moralles) had it all.

      Both were very far off - similar to the rare earths question - we won't run out any time soon.
      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sunking View Post
        The question is who will discover the Holly Grail of Lithium cathode/anode dope recipe that delivers 400 wh/Kg, C5/C10, 5000 cycles, 0 to 100 degree climate, 20-cents per wh will own the world or at least their own country.
        That is why the lab at Dalhousie U is so important. Because we don't have decades to test each recipe under long-term conditions, by measuring the coulombic-efficiency, you can get much more accurate predictions than what a manufacturer's rapid-cycling won't tell you because you are simply beating the clock on parasitic reactions.

        Then again, there is the old investors stall-tactic of waiting forever in 5-year chunks, never dealing with the present. "Any day now! -- just 5 more years! -- soon to be released! and on and on .... "

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        • #19
          Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
          Then again, there is the old investors stall-tactic of waiting forever in 5-year chunks, never dealing with the present. "Any day now! -- just 5 more years! -- soon to be released! and on and on .... "
          Me thinks it will not be a Start-Up that brings that Holly Grail of a battery as it will take a few billion $$$ for the R&D to get one ready for market. Don't be surprised if it comes from a company like Exxon-Mobile or Chevron who are both pouring billions into such product. I don't really care who it is even Uncle Ben's Rice for all I care. I just want a peice of it in the form of a few shares of stock which I think I already own some of who I speculate will be the winner. Even if I am wrong still made a chunk of change.
          MSEE, PE

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Sunking View Post
            Real easy to look up or do the math.

            Leaf mod weighs 3.8 Kg with 456 wh = 120 wh/Kg. LFP runs a bit higher I believe of 140 to 160. Neither is fantastic as Cobalt 250 wh/Kg. But better than FLA 40 to 50 wh/Kg At low charge and discharge rates associated with RE, I just don't see a lot of problems.
            And I did look it up, at batteryuniversity: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ased_batteries
            What they show is for manganese is a range from 100 to135 and for iron phosphate a range from 90 to 120. Cobalt goes from 150 to 190. Depending on construction methods each individual battery design will be at a different point in the range.
            Their table also considers iron phosphate significantly safer than either cobalt or manganese.
            Also, everyone following this thread needs to keep in mind the difference between energy density (favoring cobalt by nearly 2 to 1) and energy density (which is partly a function of mechanical design but also the cell chemistry itself) which favors a cylindrical phosphate battery by almost 6 to 1 over cobalt.
            Not sure where manganese fits in on the specific power scale.
            Last edited by inetdog; 09-26-2014, 12:05 PM.
            SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sunking View Post
              Me thinks it will not be a Start-Up that brings that Holly Grail of a battery as it will take a few billion $$$ for the R&D to get one ready for market. Don't be surprised if it comes from a company like Exxon-Mobile or Chevron who are both pouring billions into such product.
              The last result I remember was the nimh patent encumbrance debacle limiting cell size to 10ah max, effectively curtailing the use of nimh for EV.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent...NiMH_batteries

              Kind of takes me back to the days when they were trying to keep Ford down by trying to enforce the bogus Selden patent for ICE vehicles, (which in today's world would be a Non-Producing-Entity) which he overcame in court. Although enforced initially by the Electronic Vehicle Company (!), later the ALAM would be the ones trying to enforce it.

              http://www.history.com/this-day-in-h...as-powered-car

              Sunking is right - there IS money to be made by stifling technology!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by PNjunction View Post

                there IS money to be made by stifling technology!
                Not that I believe in conspiracies but I still wonder about why no one has found a cure for the common cold. There are billions to be made from "over the counter" medications. Those profits would all go away with a cure...hmmm.

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                • #23
                  Patents

                  The trouble with
                  "Stifling" technology is that it is difficult
                  And doesn't happen

                  First a patent is only for 20 years
                  Second only those technologies mentioned in the patent are covered
                  Third a patent does not cover the world
                  Some countries will ignore other countries patents
                  (The USA decided to ignore all other patents for the first 150 or so years of its existence)

                  So if it really is a GREAT idea - somebody will make it

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by duncan View Post
                    The trouble with
                    "Stifling" technology is that it is difficult
                    And doesn't happen

                    First a patent is only for 20 years
                    Second only those technologies mentioned in the patent are covered
                    Third a patent does not cover the world
                    Some countries will ignore other countries patents
                    (The USA decided to ignore all other patents for the first 150 or so years of its existence)

                    So if it really is a GREAT idea - somebody will make it
                    I do not doubt that great ideas are discovered and developed into new technology. But history has shown that some technology will be purchased and stifled because that someone can profit more if that technology didn't exist.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by duncan View Post
                      Third a patent does not cover the world
                      Some countries will ignore other countries patents
                      So if it really is a GREAT idea - somebody will make it
                      Actually you can now get a worldwide patent.

                      Agreed that today if it is a good idea someone will make it.

                      India has been ignoring drug patents for many years now for example.
                      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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                      • #26
                        Patents and copy rite are not worth the paper they are written in many countries. This has been proved many times.. And even if the patent ,copy rite is upheld in a court it only takes sometimes a very minor change to work around it.
                        Countries now like China,India , Philippines , Russia.and Vietnam ignore patents and copy rite every day of the week..In all those countries you can buy patented and copy rite items.. Its huge business..No one will ever seriously do anything about it as to many corrupt officials look after it.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by russ View Post
                          Actually you can now get a worldwide patent.

                          Agreed that today if it is a good idea someone will make it.

                          India has been ignoring drug patents for many years now for example.
                          Legal documents will never stop people from designing new technology. What can hurt it is if that new technology does not get out in the open to the public as a workable solution and gets bought up and stuffed down a hole. It won't stop someone from eventually finding it but it could delay it long enough for someone to make a sizable profit if it doesn't exist.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                            Legal documents will never stop people from designing new technology. What can hurt it is if that new technology does not get out in the open to the public as a workable solution and gets bought up and stuffed down a hole. It won't stop someone from eventually finding it but it could delay it long enough for someone to make a sizable profit if it doesn't exist.
                            In most cases this is like "who killed the EV". It makes nice headlines and may have been possible years back - now it would be hard.
                            [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by russ View Post
                              In most cases this is like "who killed the EV". It makes nice headlines and may have been possible years back - now it would be hard.
                              Harder yes. But not impossible. There are a lot of smart people out there with lots of money doing research for the ultimate energy storage system. You can't stop progress forever. But I do read a lot about breakthroughs in solar cells and batteries and then nothing further comes out on it. That could be due to the "breakthrough" was not a real thing or worst case someone snatched up the technology before it can get more press.

                              I would hope that whatever breakthrough is found on "cheap energy storage" the path to commercializing it continues full throttle. While I think this will eventually happen I believe it won't unless those that control the energy market helps it happen.

                              Maybe Tesla Batteries will be that breakthrough.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by russ View Post
                                Actually you can now get a worldwide patent.

                                Agreed that today if it is a good idea someone will make it.

                                India has been ignoring drug patents for many years now for example.
                                There isn't a worldwide patent. You can file an international patent application under the Patent Cooperation Treaty (PCT). It basically allows you to delay filing in PCT member countries for up to 30 months, but then you still have to file in each country individually. Most counties are members of the PCT, with notable exceptions like Taiwan and Argentina.

                                You can, of course, file individual applications in (nearly) every country, but that is prohibitively expensive for most. Would be hundreds of thousands of USD just to file, plus at least that much again to obtain a patent grant.

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