Leaf Battery Modules 25-cents/wh

[Sunking]

You heard me right you can buy Leaf Modules for $119 each. Each module contains 4 cells in a 2 x 2 configuration. Each cell nominal voltage = 3.8 volts @ 33 AH making each module 7.6 volts @ 66AH. That works out to $119/475 wh = 25-cents per watt hour. Top of the line FLA is around 22-cents.

[Alisobob]

yup.....

[inetdog]

The video of the penetration testing was kind of fun. But you have to keep in mind that Boeing did penetration tests of cells as part of the qualification testing for their 787 battery and they did not melt down or catch fire either. A penetrating object which does not also crush the battery is not going to conduct fault current nearly as well as an internal short caused by charge/discharge abuse or thermal runaway.
Oh well, still a good video clip.

[PNjunction]

Just a reminder - these are NOT lifepo4 batteries, but a chemistry higher up in the energy density scale (LiMn2o4). Along with that comes higher voltages like an upper limit of 4.2v. Lifepo4's upper limit is typically 3.6v. Don't get these chemistries confused.

I wonder what exactly is the state of these batteries, since Nissan won't sell them to you direct. Are they actually "used" batteries? Either way, I would not recommend them to the neophyte who doesn't know what they are doing, nor what to look out for during use.

[Ian S]

I wonder what exactly is the state of these batteries, since Nissan won't sell them to you direct. Are they actually "used" batteries? Either way, I would not recommend them to the neophyte who doesn't know what they are doing, nor what to look out for during use.

Didn't Nissan have to replace a bunch of early battery packs due to excessive degradation in hot climates? Can't imagine Nissan letting those used packs get out to the market. Still, caveat emptor!

[Sunking]

The modules I linked too are new 2010 to 2012 model years. Pretty clearly stated in the link and is from a respected EV supplier that has been around a while. But I know how to get them even cheaper and would clear all doubts. Just buy a new replacement Leaf Battery Pack for $5400/24Kwh = 22.5 cents per Kwh.

Olsan where the hell you at Son? You can get lithium for the same price as Rolls.

[Sunking]

I wonder what exactly is the state of these batteries, since Nissan won't sell them to you direct. Are they actually "used" batteries? Either way, I would not recommend them to the neophyte who doesn't know what they are doing, nor what to look out for during use.

You can say that about any lithium battery. The leaf batteries can be operated exactly like LFP or really any lithium compound as long as you do not charge to the upper limits and dwell below the bottom 20. As long as you are not pushing max C rates, very few problems can occur if you stay within voltage limits of the lithium chemistry at hand. You may have to bottom charge periodically. If you want to go to the edges, a BMS with Balance Chargers are required.

[inetdog]

I also like the way that they listed on the charging/discharging graph the available AH capacity for various cutoff voltages. Driving home pretty firmly that there is not much integral under the tail end of the curve (beyond 3.6V). So better to treat you batteries kindly unless you are trying to drive out of the desert.
The corresponding diminishing returns on the high SOC end would be above 4.05 or 4.1.
There is a lot of good info in these graphs for those who take the time to understand them.

[Ian S]

But I know how to get them even cheaper and would clear all doubts. Just buy a new replacement Leaf Battery Pack for $5400/24Kwh = 22.5 cents per Kwh.

I think that price only applies if you trade in the old battery pack.

[Sunking]

The corresponding diminishing returns on the high SOC end would be above 4.05 or 4.1.
There is a lot of good info in these graphs for those who take the time to understand them.

Spot on it is telling you it is a heck of a good battery with fairly flat voltage from 4.1 to 3.6 volts making 58 of the 66 AH available with simple charging methods. Decent energy density of 125 wh/Kg significantly less than LFP 160 wh/Kg density. That makes them safer than LFP IMHO. And for that reason (density) I will probable go with LFP in the LSV to keep it light.

[Sunking]

I think that price only applies if you trade in the old battery pack.

Don't think so, DIY EVer's are eating them up. The store is dedicated to DIY EV builders like me. DIY EV are using either the 12 Kwh pack at 160 volts or buying Nissain Leaf Replacement Battery packs and reconfigure 3 x 16. All lithium batteries used on RE come from EV batteries, and all coming lithium batteries will come from EV development in the future. The question is who will discover the Holly Grail of Lithium cathode/anode dope recipe that delivers 400 wh/Kg, C5/C10, 5000 cycles, 0 to 100 degree climate, 20-cents per wh will own the world or at least their own country.

That is where the battery has to be to compete for energy storage. Otherwise any conventional source is just cheaper and more abundant. Not a lot of lithium out there. I think it is considered a Rare Earth element.

[inetdog]

Decent energy density of 125 wh/Kg significantly less than LFP 160 wh/Kg density. That makes them safer than LFP IMHO.

That would be a good initial guess, but there are other characteristics besides energy density that can make even a lower energy density battery unsafe under some conditions like overcharge or undercharge followed by heavy charge.
Nice thing about LiFePO4 is that it tolerates overcharge and other conditions relatively gracefully (i.e you destroy the battery anyway, but it does not vent with flame or undergo spontaneous rapid disassembly. (I just love those euphemisms!))
I do not know where LiMn2O₄ falls on those criteria.
PS: PNjunction states that LiMn2O₄ is higher on specific energy than LiFePO₄. Maybe some of the difference is in the mounting hardware included with the Leaf battery or the use of thicker electrodes?
PPS: Maybe the low price without any core charge is related to an overproduction of batteries in anticipation of higher car sales?

[Sunking]

PS: PNjunction states that LiMn2O₄ is higher on specific energy than LiFePO₄.

Real easy to look up or do the math.

Leaf mod weighs 3.8 Kg with 456 wh = 120 wh/Kg. LFP runs a bit higher I believe of 140 to 160. Neither is fantastic as Cobalt 250 wh/Kg. But better than FLA 40 to 50 wh/Kg At low charge and discharge rates associated with RE, I just don't see a lot of problems.

[duncan]

Not a lot of lithium out there. I think it is considered a Rare Earth element.

It's actually quite common - no 33 in abundance in the earth's crust
Just after Nitrogen and just before Lead

[Sunking]

It's actually quite common - no 33 in abundance in the earth's crust
Just after Nitrogen and just before Lead

OK but I think there are very few places on earth where lithium is in strong enough concentrations to be mined.