Interesting articles on EV, utilities, renewables and their impacts

[bcroe]

I myself will be working on a practical way to locally store the excess
energy that my array produces during peak sunlight hours then meter it back during my
home's high demand times when the array is not producing. Net metering policies are
going to go away when our government swings back to the traditionalists you see.

Let us know when/how you solve that problem. It is the key to many REs. I spent a year
looking at it, then net metered to the Nuke down the road.

For now if net metering goes away, it will wipe out the practicality of all sorts of RE.
Sure big energy would be happy, but I don't think they will win this one. Bruce Roe

[JCP]

Let us know when/how you solve that problem. It is the key to many REs. I spent a year
looking at it, then net metered to the Nuke down the road.

For now if net metering goes away, it will wipe out the practicality of all sorts of RE.
Sure big energy would be happy, but I don't think they will win this one. Bruce Roe

Let's do some quick back of the envelope math under best scenario:
- Say cost of Li ion batteries come down to $100 / KWh.
- Average house probably needs 25 to 50 KWh of capacity
- So $2500 to $5000 of batteries
- Tack on $3000 of inverter and associated electronics
- Another $3000 to install

We're looking at close to $10K to have an off grid system, and who knows how long the batteries/inverter will work. I love the idea but it's got a ways to go before making any economic sense.

[SunEagle]

Let's do some quick back of the envelope math under best scenario:
- Say cost of Li ion batteries come down to $100 / KWh.
- Average house probably needs 25 to 50 KWh of capacity
- So $2500 to $5000 of batteries
- Tack on $3000 of inverter and associated electronics
- Another $3000 to install

We're looking at close to $10K to have an off grid system, and who knows how long the batteries/inverter will work. I love the idea but it's got a ways to go before making any economic sense.

I agree with your math. Storing RE energy in batteries is still very expensive and far outside the reach of most people even here in the US. Maybe the "holy grail" of batteries will be found in the next 5 years or so but even then it takes years and lots of funding to get a new idea from the lab into the commercial market.

[bcroe]

I agree with your math. Storing RE energy in batteries is still very expensive and far outside the reach of most people even here in the US. Maybe the "holy grail" of batteries will be found in the next 5 years or so but even then it takes years and lots of funding to get a new idea from the lab into the commercial market.

We have been struggling with the battery problem for a century and a half, and progress has only
been incremental. Don't hold your breath. Batteries are for when there is no other way.

Now here is my idea. We build this big steel ring around the equator, which can rotate on
bearings. People with extra energy push on it to go faster; those needing energy take some
and slow it down. It averages out the sun and the night, the tides, the winds.

There might be some new engineering challenges. Bruce Roe

[russ]

There might be some new engineering challenges. Bruce Roe

LOL

[SunEagle]

We have been struggling with the battery problem for a century and a half, and progress has only
been incremental. Don't hold your breath. Batteries are for when there is no other way.

Now here is my idea. We build this big steel ring around the equator, which can rotate on
bearings. People with extra energy push on it to go faster; those needing energy take some
and slow it down. It averages out the sun and the night, the tides, the winds.

There might be some new engineering challenges. Bruce Roe

You think!!!

I still like the idea of trapping a black hole and .... oh never mind.

[Mike90250]

Americans are fortunate to have an abundant supply of renewable energy resources throughout the United States. The Strategic Directions in the U.S. Electric Utility Sector Report, showed a fundamental basic changes that power utilities industry needs to go. The sixth-annual report was published Monday by Black and Veatch, a consultation and construction firm. Read this here: Renewable Energy.

All fixed up now !

[PNjunction]

Maybe the "holy grail" of batteries will be found in the next 5 years or so but even then it takes years and lots of funding to get a new idea from the lab into the commercial market.

Very true! But that 5-year wait is a very old stalling tactic to prevent those from trying to use what works and is on the market now, always investing in the future, but never realizing it. If it never makes it to market, then you have a very nice patent-warchest from which to make your investment grow from NPE's that buy you out. Sad.

Either that, or the product is very limited in quantity, only to satisfy California Air Resource Board requirements, then quickly shelved once that requirement has been met to allow them to concentrate on the old resources until they run out. From a business perspective, that makes total sense.

[SunEagle]

Very true! But that 5-year wait is a very old stalling tactic to prevent those from trying to use what works and is on the market now, always investing in the future, but never realizing it. If it never makes it to market, then you have a very nice patent-warchest from which to make your investment grow from NPE's that buy you out. Sad.

Either that, or the product is very limited in quantity, only to satisfy California Air Resource Board requirements, then quickly shelved once that requirement has been met to allow them to concentrate on the old resources until they run out. From a business perspective, that makes total sense.

Something like the first EV that GM made and then all were destroyed because someone said they were "not worth while".

GM proved a point that an electric car could be produced and was a working solution to reducing pollution but they (IMO) were forced to shut down the operation by "others".

[russ]

Something like the first EV that GM made and then all were destroyed because someone said they were "not worth while".

GM proved a point that an electric car could be produced and was a working solution to reducing pollution but they (IMO) were forced to shut down the operation by "others".

They still are not ready today (the EV) - that "Who killed the EV story" - I always considered that a green story - like the 100 mpg carb.

[Sunking]

GM proved a point that an electric car could be produced and was a working solution to reducing pollution but they (IMO) were forced to shut down the operation by "others".

The GM EV-1 was conceived in Sacramento CA by CA legislators mandating all vehicle manufactures selling in CA must offer emission free vehicles. Thus the EV-1 was conceived and born. A few short years later the law was found to be impractical, and the EV-1 died immediately. GM recalled all the leases and salvaged all the EV-1's because it was financially a huge looser for GM and was bleeding cash.

[kwilcox]

I agree with your math. Storing RE energy in batteries is still very expensive and far outside the reach of most people even here in the US. Maybe the "holy grail" of batteries will be found in the next 5 years or so but even then it takes years and lots of funding to get a new idea from the lab into the commercial market.

Because I'm a glass-half-full guy, my head keeps returning to the upcoming Tesla Battery factory when I ponder this subject....

Cost aside, one would think that the nice thing about LI-<enter your favorite substrate here> battery technology is the fact that they can last forever at 40% charge. My speculation here is that this could lend itself well to a system that stores excess solar energy during the day then feeds it back in at night. ie: calculate or empirically determine your largest daily excess kWh then size your batteries at aH + 40%. The idea here being that the largest possible excess daily generation will end up charging the batteries to 100% and nightly "playback" would then stop when they reach 40% again.

[SunEagle]

The GM EV-1 was conceived in Sacramento CA by CA legislators mandating all vehicle manufactures selling in CA must offer emission free vehicles. Thus the EV-1 was conceived and born. A few short years later the law was found to be impractical, and the EV-1 died immediately. GM recalled all the leases and salvaged all the EV-1's because it was financially a huge looser for GM and was bleeding cash.

And yet how many auto companies are jumping back into the EV field?

Maybe GM had a solution (although expensive) but to throw it away and start from scratch seems dumb. While the Volt is better than most hybrid models it still doesn't have the (electric only) range of something like the Tesla. GM could have been leading the charge instead of catching up.

[inetdog]

And yet how many auto companies are jumping back into the EV field?

Maybe GM had a solution (although expensive) but to throw it away and start from scratch seems dumb. While the Volt is better than most hybrid models it still doesn't have the (electric only) range of something like the Tesla. GM could have been leading the charge instead of catching up.

Possibly, or possibly the motor and battery technology available at the time the EV-1 was designed was limited enough that it would not have provided a useful platform to develop from.
The individual cells used in the Tesla battery were not originally designed for automotive use, and the technology push behind them might not have been done by GM themselves in any case.

[Sunking]

Because I'm a glass-half-full guy, my head keeps returning to the upcoming Tesla Battery factory when I ponder this subject....

Cost aside, one would think that the nice thing about LI-<enter your favorite substrate here> battery technology is the fact that they can last forever at 40% charge.

Who fed you that garbage and why did you eat it? All batteries have shelf and cycle life, whichever comes first. a really good quality Lithium battery has around 2000 cycles if cycled between 20 and 80% DOD or up to 8 to 10 years sitting on a shelf.