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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    Lead-Tin is primarily used in AGM batteries. It has a high energy density meaning it can deliver high currents, and significantly reduces thermal runaway.
    Yeah, that is one thing that got me hooked when I first tested them. You should have seen it. I was hitting an Odyssey with about 1C charge current, with temp probes hooked up, IR laser pointer thermometer, bucket of sand ready, faceshield. All I was missing was a klaxon. Kinda' disappointed that there was NO drama, and only about a 5F degree rise above ambient. Fortunately, no hot spots.

    Test 2 was pumping 5A into a teeny Cyclon 12v/5ah monobloc from an 85w panel/controller. Again, no drama but boy it sure looks unsafe! Doing that to a standard Powersonic agm would have been game over.

    Just options. But yes, the absolute most expensive agm is not an Odyssey - it is one made out of Hawker Cyclons. Same stuff, but wow. You really are looking at Lifepo4 parity. (I'm trying not to sneak that in every message thread, but can't resist on this one solely from an options standpoint.)

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    • #17
      Help Please.



      CYCLON APPLICATION MANUAL

      cyclon charge rate.jpg

      ^^^
      In section 6.5 and tables 6.1 & 6.2

      What does "1.5C/10" and "2.5C/10" equate to on a 25ah (6x2v) 12v battery-pack?

      Basically, the application will be cyclic, discharging 68watts (23%) nightly.

      Charge:
      • 50watt panel, rated at 2.7 A(Imp) 2.84 A(Isc)
      • PWM charge-controller (looking into mppt, but assume pwm for now)
      • 3 hour insolation


      Is that charge sufficient to return these batteries to 100% capacity, on a sunny day?

      Thanks!
      Last edited by Shockah; 07-16-2014, 11:25 PM. Reason: added photo
      [CENTER]SunLight @ Night[/CENTER]

      Comment


      • #18
        Do I have this correct?

        1.5C/10
        (25ah/10)x1.5 = 3.75a

        2.5C/10
        (25ah/10)x2.5 = 6.25a
        [CENTER]SunLight @ Night[/CENTER]

        Comment


        • #19
          You've just run into the way Enersys rates their batteries at the 10-hour rate, instead of the 20 hour rate.

          You need to move the decimal point. What they are talking about at 1.5C for a 25ah battery would be charging it with about 37.5A CC/CV. At 2.5C, that would be hitting this 25ah battery with about 63A.

          Can you imagine the shock you'd have running an array large enough to provide say 60A current to a mere 25ah battery? Welcome to the world of "tppl" my friend.

          But even so, you still wouldn't make it with a 50 watt panel on a 25ah battery only drawing out 23%.

          Napkin calc: 25ah battery * .23 = 5.75ah used daily.
          50w / 18v = 2.77a from 50w panel under best conditions.
          (5.75 / 2.77) * 1.78 compensation = 3.7 hours.

          If you beefed that panel up to 60W, you would barely make it in three hours. BUT all agm's need a float after absorb is done, and we don't have that luxury of time, even if we do set both absorb and float voltages the same.

          If you want to treat them right, with only 3 hours insolation, we need to get them into absorb as fast as possible, and still hold them there for awhile when absorb is finished for a "faux" float compensation.

          If you used an 80 watt panel, you would achieve the end of absorb in about 2.5 hours, and by setting both your absorb and float to 14.7v, you can do a faux-float compensation of about 30 minutes. That would be my version of a minimum of health for an agm.

          Many agm's are degraded by designing solely to reach the end of absorb without any sufficient float time. Hammer those tppl's if you can stay within budget.

          Comment


          • #20
            Ding - lightbulb went off ...

            Enersys rates their batteries based upon the 10-hour rate, but if your application is drawing a low current that it really puts it into a 20-hour rate draw, then thanks to Mr. Peukert, your 25ah battery might actually be classified as say a 28ah battery. That might be enough to make a difference in the calculations, since you are not drawing 23% from the batteries, but something lower, like 20% or less. Enersys usually provides charts that show a variety of hour-rates other than just the default 10-hour rate.

            In that case, you just *might* make it with a 60 watt panel. But since there is no limit on the inrush, you still have the option of going with a larger panel just in case. The only thing to avoid would be achieving the end of absorb well before your real solar insolation starts, and having it sit in the "faux float" elevated absorb voltage for 8 or more hours daily until the sun goes down.

            But like they say, it is better to err on the side of slight overcharge, than err on the side of consistent undercharge. This is all temperature-compensated of course, preferably at the battery and not ambient.

            Comment


            • #21
              Thanks PNJ...

              Sorry, just couldn't get my head wrapped around it last night... and now I know why... 63A?!? LOL

              3 hours is less than worse case.

              Strange thing though, Is I have the same 68watt draw/50watt panel on cheapo AGM batteries,
              and they're holding up after several months now of daily cycles.

              The only reason I am intrigued by these expensive Enersys Cyclons is so I can hide them in the post...
              but if they cost 5X as much and are more temperamental to charging routine,
              then maybe I should use a bigger post to hide the cheapo battery
              [CENTER]SunLight @ Night[/CENTER]

              Comment


              • #22
                How much voltage do you need?

                As I said before the Cyclon lin eis a great battery, but not really intended for cycle service.
                MSEE, PE

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Shockah View Post
                  The only reason I am intrigued by these expensive Enersys Cyclons is so I can hide them in the post...
                  but if they cost 5X as much and are more temperamental to charging routine, then maybe I should use a bigger post to hide the cheapo battery
                  Sounds like a plan! Aside from the form factor, you are paying for a feature you won't be really taking advantage of when it comes to high current handling.

                  But they really aren't more fiddly about charging - it is just that many people chronically undercharge their agm's, but if they are cheap enough, from a practical standpoint it may be easier to simply replace them more often. With the Cyclon's, they know you are paying big $$ for them, and they want to at least make you aware of the need for proper agm charging - and also to make sure that some lab-rat like me or major commercial customer won't come back for a warrantee replacement when they only provide 50 cycles less than spec due to my charging routine.

                  Personally, I'd have a go at it because you are not deep cycling them, they will sit somewhat near 75-80% SOC when not in use, and if you use a 50-60w panel, it is likely you will get reasonable life from them, even if they are not being charged perfectly - I have a feeling that mere calendar life may limit you more than not obtaining a perfect charge. If you don't use them for perhaps just one day a week, that would be a nice compensation. You just might beat the cycle/life clock. You could even take it conservative, with a 14.7v absorb, and a 14.4v float with an adjustable cc. Just remember that before placing the battery in service, to do a good charge with a looooong float on them. Could you at least beef the panel up to 60W ?

                  Put this on the back burner - what I'd do is stuff four Headway 10ah 38120 lifepo4 cells in series inside the tube. They can handle up to 80% DOD and get 1500+ cycles - more if your DOD is less. Set your CC to 13.8v absorb. Disable float, or set it to something benign, like 13.5v. No temp comp needed. No need to reach 100% SOC. No sulfation. Partial SOC operation is just fine. Put your lights on the CC's LVD for a 12.8v cutoff. Done. Use a single-cell lifepo4 charger - even wall-wart size would do if you wanted to play with manual balance, and then leave it alone once balanced.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                    How much voltage do you need?
                    As I said before the Cyclon lin eis a great battery, but not really intended for cycle service.
                    I have one of these, 2 volts at 25 AH. Using it to replace a lead acid cell, which seems to
                    no longer be available, and I don't mind getting rid of vented acid. Just how should
                    charging be regulated? Could charge at 10A, and go to float (2.25V) when the terminals
                    reach 2.45V. I expect to be charging with pure DC.

                    Or should terminals be pushed toward 2.45V with unlimited current, and then switch to
                    float 2.25V after charging current drops to near zero? Bruce Roe

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I follow either one of these two rules from the 1999 Cyclon users guide:

                      These assume a temp of 25C, and are a compromise between fast charge cyclic, and standby/float applications. Which is perfect for me, since I sometimes cross the line between the two.

                      1) Charge within 2.45 - 2.50v until current drops to 0.001C (zero, point zero zero one), then float for a few hours at 2.27v. Terminate charge. Note that 2.45v is the Minimum, no matter how much current you feed into it.

                      2) The better choice: Charge within 2.45 - 2.50v, until the absorb current has stabilized without much change for 3 hours. Terminate charge. By not seeking a specific "end-amps" as in the choice above, you are taking into account the cells age, internal resistance changes, and so forth. Again, 2.45v is the minimum, regardless of inrush current.

                      I apply #2 to my other types of agm's as well!!

                      WHY ??

                      Because option #1 may only be reached when a cell is very new. Ie, for your 25ah battery, that meant an end-amp absorb current of only 25ma (twenty five milliamps). For years I had been seeing references to using 0.01C, or about 250ma in this case, which really meant UNDER-charging, despite the few hours of followup float.

                      Option #2 was a watershed moment - it was the only one that took into account a batteries health over time, and not just a static value! For instance, in a year or so, as the cells age and dry out, you may NEVER reach 25ma of absorb, and end up cooking your cells attempting to get there. By watching for no real change over the course of 3 hours, you would charge properly and not dry them out.

                      But option #2 is hard to set with a solar charge controller that may rely on end-amps. So what should one do? Perhaps yearly, perform this charge on the bench, and record the stabilized absorb current value, and change your controller's "end amps", to either terminate or drop to float on that new current setting. This will help you stay in accord with the battery's own health as it ages, and not dry it out prematurely.

                      Or, you could just wing it, set your end-amps to 0.01C, and undercharge your batteries in the beginning of their service life.

                      Enersys really knows what they are doing, but I must admit, most consumer's eyeballs would glaze over if they read the manual, so you will see some simplification in later versions. Perhaps many of the consumers had no way to measure charge current reliably during the absorb stage. (Note - early manuals described intermittent charging - which was discovered to be really bad, so IGNORE that section in the 99 manual!)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Thanks for that info. There is a lot of stuff here with such batteries (mostly needing
                        new cells). Being decades old, the chargers are extremely crude. Like, "plug it in
                        for a while after use". I'd like to leave it plugged in continuously, to be ready and
                        to preserve the batteries.

                        This stuff will tend to be perpetually on standby, but I don't want to forget about it
                        and ruin the batteries. There is already a system for the many lead acid batteries
                        around (standby generator, extra cars, etc). Since the float will be continuous, I'm
                        thinking of just cutting off absorb current at 0.01C and dropping to float 2.25V.

                        What kind of current might flow at 2.45V, after considerable discharge? My thinking is
                        rectify about 10 VDC, then switch buck regulate down to the desired charging voltage.
                        So the charge current will be pretty smooth. Load current probably won't exceed 0.1C,
                        so can the level of discharge be estimated from V? What is a good low cutoff V?
                        Bruce Roe

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          [QUOTE=bcroe;116419]Thanks for that info. There is a lot of stuff here with such batteries (mostly needing
                          new cells). Being decades old, the chargers are extremely crude. Like, "plug it in
                          for a while after use". I'd like to leave it plugged in continuously, to be ready and
                          to preserve the batteries. /QUOTE]

                          Bruce that is easily done with a Float Charge. A float charger is as good as it gets. The cyclone is designed for for Emergency Standby Service and a Float Charger.
                          MSEE, PE

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Sunking is right for standby float. If you are going to do that, you do so at 2.27v per cell.

                            If your charge current at 2.27v is only 0.01C, then a minimum of 22 hours is needed.
                            If it is 1C, then 6 hours would be the minimum.

                            Just be sure you are actually doing a standby service - do not use this for rapid cyclic service.

                            It should be mentioned that with option #2 mentioned above where you look for 3 hours of stability to stop the charge, you would actually set it just a little bit higher to allow for degradation between measurement periods, and especially in the case of multi-cell batteries where you don't have access to each cell.

                            Ie, if you notice your cell stabilizing at say 43ma over a 3 hour period, then if you use that with a solar charge controller, then you would set it a bit higher, say 65ma, to give yourself some headroom.

                            One can see why LiFePo4 is much easier to maintain than AGM! And, since agm was a major driving force behind EV's a few decades ago when the battle raged between NiMh, one can see that true officianados couldn't cope with that simplicity, and hence were overjoyed to wrap their battery banks with a rat's nest of wiring to get to this level of monitoring - they couldn't get past the lead-acid mentality of it all. Homebrew bleed-off boards and other methods of active-balancing were popular way back then too, (See the EVDL archives) and dutifully killing large high-voltage banks of Optima and Genesis agm's when they failed. I'm not trying to disrespect the EV community, but just noted that we've been down this road before.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sunking
                              Bruce that is easily done with a Float Charge. A float charger is as good as
                              it gets. The cyclone is designed for for Emergency Standby Service and a Float Charger.
                              OK for just riding through occasional power glitches, the 2.27V float should cover it. For
                              equipment needing a quicker recovery, the charger should start at 2.45V and then drop
                              down to 2.27V when current drops to .01C.

                              If I set the voltage, the battery will set the current. If I limit the current, the battery will
                              control the voltage. What level of current might occur after discharging a 25AH cell?

                              Load current will be low, so can the level of discharge be estimated from V? What is a
                              good low cutoff V?

                              Bruce

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                If you go float-only, you need to also limit the current to whatever would be safe during the bulk phase.
                                In other words, do not use too stiff a supply for the float voltage.
                                SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

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