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  • #61
    Originally posted by jschner View Post
    On my house all they have to do is remove the net meter and plug in the 2-way usage meter. I imagine it has two meters in one, inflow and outflow. No rewiring needed. Plus my net meter is not wireless so they physically have to send a guy to my house right now.

    I have read the agreements. I'll see if I can figure a way to post the PDFs.

    to be honest I'm not sure what you are asking here? I think Tom is looking at daily inflow and outflow of kWhs and whatever that is in a month's time is how they will charge me. It's still not all that clear yet but I think we are getting closer.

    Thanks a bunch!
    My example was to see if Tom was doing net metering or gross metering. I don't think you need to post the agreement. But, it's still not clear whether the net metering is done instantaneously, hourly, or daily. Daily is better for you than hourly and hourly is better than instantaneously. Tom should be able to provide you with a detailed description of how the meter is programmed to accumulate data and the frequency of data stored in the meter (15 minute, hourly or what) for access by the City. It sounds as if it may be daily which certainly is significantly better than the calculation in Post 1.

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    • #62
      Question - how are the REC credits a benefit to the city? The director said at the workshop they were no benefit but in his DG proposal he said it would be a $15k to $20K benefit. In the agreements they state the City owns all those credits. Can someone explain how they work with this not for profit California electric utility? Why under Net Metering they are not a benefit?

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      • #63
        Probably not a lot of interest in this but here is an update on my local utility and their move from net metering to distributive metering (DM).

        Three months ago the local utility switched everyone's net meter out for this new two-way meter that only displays forward power usage. During the day when the solar is producing, the new meter slows and comes to a stop but does not go backwards. Not even when my excess power is flowing to the grid. It only displays one way usage. Whatever this meter reads, I get charged by the month at the retail rate of $0.144kWh. That is my contribution to the infrastructure.

        In return now, they pay for 100% of my total solar production from the production meter they have installed. They give me a credit based upon their lowest wholesale power rate of $0.865kWh It's pretty low but again they pay me for 100% of my production, even what I use for my own household. So it offsets things a little bit.

        Here is how the last months bill came out. Mind you this was for January in N. California.

        DM=474kWh at $0.144 = $68.25
        PM=557kWh at $0.865 = ($48.15)
        Plus $14.50 connection fee and about $5 in public benefit and such.

        Net result was I paid $39.72 for power. Feb. it looks like I will pay around $29 for power.


        Disadvantages of this distributive metering method:
        1. I can no longer know what my total household power usage is. Meter only shows non-production usage. Bill shows the same. So I can't even compare what the Net metering would have been for the same month. I can only guess based upon last years figures.

        2. In a way it's forced us to use more power during peak times when the solar is producing rather than conserve now. matter of fact I find I'm now turning on all kinds of things during the day like running the pool pump which usually sits during the winter, and leaving lights on. Then when the sun goes down, it's full conservation mode. lol

        3. $0.865 rate is re-calculated every year and can easily go down further if the city feels like it.

        4. It doesn't pay to be a night owl. Staying up late or when it gets hot outside using the AC in the evening or night is going to cost us. How much? I don't know yet.

        5. Everything is reconciled monthly instead of yearly, so no banking power or credits for later use in any way now. No building credits in the spring for use in summer. It's all measured instantaneously.

        6. Difficult to figure out if I should add to this system or not to try to offset some of the disadvantages. At $0.08kWh it's tough to justify it.


        Advanatges:
        1. The monthly $14.50 connection fee and other fees are no longer automatic like with net metering. They can be credited away if I produce enough power. I'm not sure yet if that can be done with my setup and usage habits.

        2. I get paid for the production power I use or do not use. I can use and waste as much power as I want during production times as long as it doesn't exceed my production and it not impact me in any way right now. I get paid $0.865 no matter what or until the next adjustment.

        3. My swimming pool is clear. Maybe I should get an electric pool heater? lol



        So with all that, does anyone have any inexpensive ideas how I can use my excess power during the day for use in the evenings?

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        • #64
          I have three suggestions:

          1.. Charge your EV during daylight hours, most EV's have the timing capability built in.

          2..Get a Nyle heat pump water heater system. Put it on a timer so that it only heats water 10 to 4.

          3. Get an electric thermal storage system (ETS). Steffes makes a great product which has timers built in for on and off peak storage.


          That should soak up most of your excess.

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          • #65
            Sort of looks like you're getting credit for something like what the POCO claims is the cost of the power portion of the bill for what your system produces, and being charged something like what might be tier 1 rates for everything you use.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by jschner View Post
              Three months ago the local utility switched everyone's net meter out for this new two-way meter that only displays forward power usage. During the day when the solar is producing, the new meter slows and comes to a stop but does not go backwards. Not even when my excess power is flowing to the grid. It only displays one way usage. Whatever this meter reads, I get charged by the month at the retail rate of $0.144kWh. That is my contribution to the infrastructure.

              In return now, they pay for 100% of my total solar production from the production meter they have installed. They give me a credit based upon their lowest wholesale power rate of $0.865kWh It's pretty low but again they pay me for 100% of my production, even what I use for my own household. So it offsets things a little bit.
              So if I'm understanding this correctly:
              • For power imported from the grid, you pay $0.144/kWh
              • For power exported to the grid, you earn $0.0865/kWh (I assume $0.865 was a typo)
              • For power generated and used on-site, you save/earn $0.2305/kWh


              That's one of the screwier schemes I've seen, since it creates a big incentive to shift consumption to sunny days. The way to win with this pricing is to take power you were going to use anyway and shift it to when there's excess solar generation. You can afford to be pretty inefficient about this, given the big gap in pricing.

              Here's my idea: Install a second really big water heater in front of your existing water heater, and put the new water heater on a switch that turns it on when there's excess solar power being generated. A big tank of water can store a respectable amount of energy, and this way you'll be using your excess solar generation to preheat the hot water and keep the main water heater from running as much.
              16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by pleppik View Post
                So if I'm understanding this correctly:
                • For power imported from the grid, you pay $0.144/kWh
                • For power exported to the grid, you earn $0.0865/kWh (I assume $0.865 was a typo)
                • For power generated and used on-site, you save/earn $0.2305/kWh


                That's one of the screwier schemes I've seen, since it creates a big incentive to shift consumption to sunny days. The way to win with this pricing is to take power you were going to use anyway and shift it to when there's excess solar generation. You can afford to be pretty inefficient about this, given the big gap in pricing.

                Here's my idea: Install a second really big water heater in front of your existing water heater, and put the new water heater on a switch that turns it on when there's excess solar power being generated. A big tank of water can store a respectable amount of energy, and this way you'll be using your excess solar generation to preheat the hot water and keep the main water heater from running as much.
                I bet it makes a lot more sense if you think like the other guy (the POCO). Solar generators are encouraged to use power as they generate it, but sounds like they can't generally tell how much they are producing instanteneously. The POCO tends to get some load leveling, and users can't effectively use the grid for storage month to month.

                If you don't believe that, look at it from an entirely separate and cynical viewpoint: Do you really, in your widest dreams, think any large corporation would do anything that would cost them $.01 if there was a way to avoid it ? Get less parochial in your reasoning and think like the other guy.

                I bet this may be one future scenario for the big 3 CA POCOS as a result of AB 327 mandates. It values the solar portion at the POCO rate of energy charge, perhaps closer to its "environmental attribute value" , and seems to not place an undue burden on non solar users - two of the AB 327 mandates.

                Time will tell.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by pleppik View Post
                  So if I'm understanding this correctly:
                  • For power imported from the grid, you pay $0.144/kWh
                  • For power exported to the grid, you earn $0.0865/kWh (I assume $0.865 was a typo)
                  • For power generated and used on-site, you save/earn $0.2305/kWh


                  That's one of the screwier schemes I've seen, since it creates a big incentive to shift consumption to sunny days. The way to win with this pricing is to take power you were going to use anyway and shift it to when there's excess solar generation. You can afford to be pretty inefficient about this, given the big gap in pricing.

                  Here's my idea: Install a second really big water heater in front of your existing water heater, and put the new water heater on a switch that turns it on when there's excess solar power being generated. A big tank of water can store a respectable amount of energy, and this way you'll be using your excess solar generation to preheat the hot water and keep the main water heater from running as much.
                  Yes! It is that crazy!

                  I'm not fully understanding where the $0.02305 came in??

                  You are correct - imported power I pay $0.144/kWh. Pretty much nights and cloudy days usage. Right now I genertae about 12 to 15kW a night. It really depends on how late we stay up. If I can cut that in half I think I will pretty much always have a credit from the POCO.

                  As far as I can tell, the POCO no longer monitors how much overall power I use. I'm sure they can figure it out but it is no longer on our bill. What they do is they have a production meter right after my inverter that monitors 100% of the solar power produced. Whether I burn up that power or send it to the grid, they pay me $0.0865 (yes typo earlier) for every kWh I produce. The POCO receives some kind of benefit from from California or someone when they treat me like a power source. REC credits?

                  Trust me it's a free for all right now from sun up to sun down. I have as much as 3kW to 4kW to burn for free every day for 4 or 5 hours and I'm trying to figure out a small way to take some of the edge off the night time power usage. I can't do a big expense or anything permanent because who knows if the city will change things again?

                  And this is so new, I'm not even sure what the city does if I generate a large monthly credit that exceeds all my electric portion of my bill. It's a combined bill with water, garbage and sewer. Does this mean any credits goes toward those things too? A credit is a credit right? That is about $100 of my bill every month. I would really love to be able to test that. haha

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by jschner View Post
                    Yes! It is that crazy!

                    I'm not fully understanding where the $0.02305 came in??
                    I figured the power you generate and use on site is worth $0.2305 because you are both getting paid the $0.0865 for generating the power, and you don't have to pay $0.144 to buy the power from the utility. That's assuming you were going to use that power anyway...

                    This system really does create a screwy incentive to increase your power usage during sunny hours, and I have a hard time believing that's what the power company really wants. It would make more sense to pay you a wholesale rate (like the $0.0865) for the power you generate, whether you use it on site or not, and charge you a retail rate (like $0.144) for all the power you use, not just the power you import from the grid. Or, only pay you for what you export but not what you use on site.

                    Maybe I really am too parochial and can't put my head around what the other guy is thinking. But it seems that if the utility is paying for the power, they might want the opportunity to resell it to someone else.
                    16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

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