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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    I factored in delivery and transmission charges.
    Where were you seeing the numbers at? I don't have my bill in front of me but I can post the numbers and how NW Energy breaks it out when I get home. If I remember correctly it was $.06/kwh for the power and $.05/kwh in delivery charges. There is a $5/mo fee I will always have to pay but the rest of the bill works out to $.11/kwh.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by sunnybean View Post
      Where were you seeing the numbers at? I don't have my bill in front of me but I can post the numbers and how NW Energy breaks it out when I get home. If I remember correctly it was $.06/kwh for the power and $.05/kwh in delivery charges. There is a $5/mo fee I will always have to pay but the rest of the bill works out to $.11/kwh.
      Here is where I found it. Even if at 11-cents and poor insolation is still going to push ROI way out there. You rmoney is likely better invested in something else where it take less than 20 years to just get your investment back. Even a CD where you can liquidate tomorrow if needed is better.With solar you cannot liquidate and have to live long enough to get a return if any with your electric rates and insolation. Even then it is you cannot not liquidate to cahcash if you need it.

      All I am saying is think this through where you live. Give an investor $10 today and in 7 to 10 years you got $20 cash in your pocket vs saving $10 on your electric bill in 10 years. .
      MSEE, PE

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sunking View Post
        Here is where I found it. Even if at 11-cents and poor insolation is still going to push ROI way out there. You rmoney is likely better invested in something else where it take less than 20 years to just get your investment back. Even a CD where you can liquidate tomorrow if needed is better.With solar you cannot liquidate and have to live long enough to get a return if any with your electric rates and insolation. Even then it is you cannot not liquidate to cahcash if you need it.

        All I am saying is think this through where you live. Give an investor $10 today and in 7 to 10 years you got $20 cash in your pocket vs saving $10 on your electric bill in 10 years. .
        I never thought I'd be getting talked out of a solar system on a solar site. Lol. Those are all good points. I'm still batting it back and forth but am fairly certain this will be a worthy investment. I gamble a large chunk of my paycheck in the markets. I figured this would be a good way to diversify.

        On those numbers, they are not right. There is more cost on the delivery side of things.

        As for the insolation, here is a summary of the site. What are your thoughts on this data?




        Thanks

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        • #19
          Originally posted by sunnybean View Post
          I never thought I'd be getting talked out of a solar system on a solar site. Lol.
          Not really trying to talk you out of it. Solar only works in certain areas where electric rates are high, you neighbors pick up most of the cost, and you have good solar insolation. They all have to lin eup to get a decent ROI. I do not know about MT. That is your job to do due diligence.
          MSEE, PE

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          • #20
            So my rates are;

            Res. Service Charge = $5.25 (will always have to pay)
            Delivery Charges = $26.88/667khw = $.04/kwh
            Electric Supply = $42.08/667khw = $.063/kwh

            Total $/kwh = $.103

            Also, NW Energy has threatened a rate increase if it cannot buy 11 dams from PPL Montana.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by sunnybean View Post
              As for the insolation, here is a summary of the site. What are your thoughts on this data? A lot of it is Greek to me.
              I did a quick calculation using PVWatts website comparing Billings to here in Phoenix. Based on that I get an additional 21% annual production from an identical system with no shading, 180 deg azimuth (i.e. due south) and default panel tilt (which I believe is your latitude.) So I don't think your insolation is too shabby at all. Guess your "Big Sky" must be clear a lot of the time.

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              • #22
                Insolation is good there about the same as here in Maryland or better.
                But as Sunking said it depends on the incentives and electric rates to see what return you get.
                Personally anything over 10 years is too long to break even.
                However think about it like doing the kitchen or a bathroom in your house. They provide no immediate liquidity or any return until you sell and then it is questionable what you will recover. At least this offers some savings.
                NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                  Not really trying to talk you out of it. Solar only works in certain areas where electric rates are high, you neighbors pick up most of the cost, and you have good solar insolation. They all have to lin eup to get a decent ROI. I do not know about MT. That is your job to do due diligence.
                  Right on. No worries, I was joking.

                  If you don't mind, what do you think of the solar summary I posted above? When they did the proposal they came up with a ROI of 8% and a payoff in 13 years (if rates remained static).

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ian S View Post
                    I did a quick calculation using PVWatts website comparing Billings to here in Phoenix. Based on that I get an additional 21% annual production from an identical system with no shading, 180 deg azimuth (i.e. due south) and default panel tilt (which I believe is your latitude.) So I don't think your insolation is too shabby at all. Guess your "Big Sky" must be clear a lot of the time.
                    Thats cool. Thanks for doing that.

                    The central and eastern side of the state gets a lot of sun, even in the winter. West of the Continental divide is much different due to the valley inversions which cap everything off from the sun. Over here on the lee side of the mountains the inversion set in but most of the time it is clear and cold.

                    Also, I think I can get the pathfinder numbers a slight bit better. If we move uphill about 20 feet from where he took the readings and I fall some trees things should improve a bit.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by sunnybean View Post
                      Right on. No worries, I was joking.

                      If you don't mind, what do you think of the solar summary I posted above? When they did the proposal they came up with a ROI of 8% and a payoff in 13 years (if rates remained static).
                      Assuming net metering and the federal tax credit are your only incentives, solar appears kinda marginal for you. Naptown's 10 year rule of thumb is a good one. That said, it also depends on how long you intend to stay in your home and whether or not going solar has a non-financial "feel good" aspect for you. If you don't intend to stay put for as long as it takes to get your investment back then I'd be wary of committing to solar. Also, rising rates may be a factor - how much is your POCO talking if they don't get their dams? Ultimately, it comes down to you and balancing all the factors involved in going solar. One other thing many forget is that any "return" calculated for the investment is effectively tax-free unlike many other investments. But also that return is probably calculated over a period of 25 to 30 years.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ian S View Post
                        Assuming net metering and the federal tax credit are your only incentives, solar appears kinda marginal for you. Naptown's 10 year rule of thumb is a good one. That said, it also depends on how long you intend to stay in your home and whether or not going solar has a non-financial "feel good" aspect for you. If you don't intend to stay put for as long as it takes to get your investment back then I'd be wary of committing to solar. Also, rising rates may be a factor - how much is your POCO talking if they don't get their dams? Ultimately, it comes down to you and balancing all the factors involved in going solar. One other thing many forget is that any "return" calculated for the investment is effectively tax-free unlike many other investments. But also that return is probably calculated over a period of 25 to 30 years.
                        Right on. Here is what the incentive breakdown is:



                        We don't see moving out of this house until I can no longer walk up the stairs. Some days that feels really close. Lol. This is pretty much our dream home. We hope to die here.

                        There are some feel-good reasons, but that's not a huge driving force. Mainly it comes from spending a bit of time under the coal stacks in the eastern part of the state.

                        The POCO isn't talking huge increases if they can't buy the dams. Some where around $5/mo or so.

                        I like the tax free part.

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                        • #27
                          So how is the Solar Market in MT?

                          Is it like CA where they have high electric rates, great solar insolation, huge state and local incentives on top of federal, and fierce competition from installers getting that free fed, state, and local money? I just cannot see all that coming together in MT.
                          MSEE, PE

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                            So how is the Solar Market in MT?

                            Is it like CA where they have high electric rates, great solar insolation, huge state and local incentives on top of federal, and fierce competition from installers getting that free fed, state, and local money? I just cannot see all that coming together in MT.
                            No. But then again, it's not California.

                            I don't know all the details of CA's incentives or rates. I'm pretty sure their ROI will be much better.

                            I posted the incentives and proposed ROI above. I know it's not great.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by sunnybean View Post
                              No. But then again, it's not California.

                              I don't know all the details of CA's incentives or rates. I'm pretty sure their ROI will be much better.

                              I posted the incentives and proposed ROI above. I know it's not great.
                              Your quote is quite good and the state tax credit helps too. But Cali rates range up to more than triple yours so their payback is faster.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ian S View Post
                                But Cali rates range up to more than triple yours so their payback is faster.
                                Not only Cali electric rates are triple his, but local incentives are much higher like the electric company paying up around $2/watt for the installation cost.
                                MSEE, PE

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