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enginiered drawings,net metering, & permit schedual - grid tie

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  • #31
    When Enron owned the project, for a couple of years before they went down, the sales guys in Portland, OR ran operations. They would have the turbines turning below critical speed to conserve water and when they got the 1000$ per MWh sale they would have them running up against the over speed trips.

    The power house people said the entire dam would be vibrating at that point.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Volusiano View Post
      Can you show us some pics of your drawing for the electrical system? Not just the panel and inverter layout, but the electrical drawing. Thanks.
      I can't do that from work. I don't have the schematic on my server. I can snap a photo of it and post it up.

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      • #33
        I just finished installing my own system, I could post the drawings if it would help others. But only if that would be OK with the moderators. I don't mind critiques or criticism, if it saves someone else from screwing up.

        I wouldn't advise doing a self installed system just to save money, because you will probably spend many, many hours learning what is needed. I think a good local installer is money well spent unless you want to do it for the education and commit to doing it right.

        Steve

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        • #34
          Originally posted by sdold View Post
          I just finished installing my own system, I could post the drawings if it would help others. But only if that would be OK with the moderators. I don't mind critiques or criticism, if it saves someone else from screwing up.

          I wouldn't advise doing a self installed system just to save money, because you will probably spend many, many hours learning what is needed. I think a good local installer is money well spent unless you want to do it for the education and commit to doing it right.

          Steve
          Good analysis Steve - post your information please - just remember to have a thick skin in the event someone makes rude comments - not that any of us would ever do such a thing.
          [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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          • #35
            Originally posted by russ View Post
            - not that any of us would ever do such a thing.
            That's why I'm here, some of the other forums out there are not as civil as this one. I have them all on six PDF files, let me see if I can find a file area here.

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            • #36
              Here are my drawings. I'm not a professional, but I tried to do the job like a professional would. Comments and criticism are welcome, be as mean and nasty as you like, if it saves someone else from wasting money, time, or burning down their house it's worth it.

              When you view them, they may be rotated 90 degrees clockwise. I'm not sure how to fix that, but any PDF viewer should let you rotate them 90 degrees CCW.

              EDIT: more current versions with suggestions added are a few posts down below.


              Steve
              Attached Files

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              • #37
                Originally posted by sdold View Post
                Here are my drawings. I'm not a professional, but I tried to do the job like a professional would. Comments and criticism are welcome, be as mean and nasty as you like, if it saves someone else from wasting money, time, or burning down their house it's worth it.

                When you view them, they may be rotated 90 degrees clockwise. I'm not sure how to fix that, but any PDF viewer should let you rotate them 90 degrees CCW.

                Steve
                Steve

                I am just breezing over your drawings and noticed on the first one the wrong amp value for each panel. Your document has it at 9.0A instead of 0.9A x 16 panels = 14.4A total.

                I also saw a reference to the 2008 NEC. Each state has different approvals and I could be wrong but I thought CA was at least to the 2011 NEC.

                I am also not sure about the wiring for that "dedicated outlet" on drawing 5. You need a neutral and ground wire connected to it.

                I will keep looking but I think you have done a pretty good job.

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                • #38
                  Update-thanks to all who shared valuable experiences and knowledge. It all came in handy. As for me, I put a 6K grid tie ground mount system in. I worked a deal out with a local installer. I purchased the steel and fabricated all the ground mount substructure. I also trenched and ran 400' of conduit from array to service panel. I did all the site work.
                  The installer provided the System materiel's (panels / inverters/ wire)at a competitive cost, did the permitting and hookup.
                  Everybody won. Worked out very well
                  I could have saved a fraction more but being i'm in CT, The permitting and grid tie paperwork mainly is stacked against the average person and this is done on purpose. Basically, unless you hold pv installer licensing and more, you will loss as a DIY. Though I'd a share

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                    Steve

                    I am just breezing over your drawings and noticed on the first one the wrong amp value for each panel. Your document has it at 9.0A instead of 0.9A x 16 panels = 14.4A total.
                    I noticed that too, a couple of days ago. Apparently the inspectors didn't notice it or knew what I meant. I think I will fix it and re-upload it, so it doesn't throw someone off.

                    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                    I also saw a reference to the 2008 NEC. Each state has different approvals and I could be wrong but I thought CA was at least to the 2011 NEC.
                    It seems to depend on where you go, I have the CEC (California Elect. code) at work, and when I first met with the building inspector I asked him if that's what they used. He said they used the NEC, but I forgot to ask which year, and when I made the drawing I threw in 2008 since I had seen it on another recent drawing and I knew I had that version on a PDF. That was sloppiness on my part. I assumed things stayed pretty much the same from version to version, but I recently found out differently; apparently there is an important change in the 2014 NEC 705 section.

                    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                    I am also not sure about the wiring for that "dedicated outlet" on drawing 5. You need a neutral and ground wire connected to it.
                    You're right. The outlet does have neutral and ground to the sub panel. I just forgot to add those to the drawing. I guess I ought to add them too.

                    I almost didn't use a sub panel, but I saw another web site (one that I thought was very good, not sure if posting links is allowed however) that suggested it. That turned out to be handy when I had to use toroids to isolate the Envoy RF-wise from the rest of the house to get it to communicate with the inverters.

                    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                    I will keep looking but I think you have done a pretty good job.
                    Thanks for taking a look at these.

                    Steve

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                    • #40
                      My sub-panel does have a neutral bus, which I just noticed that I forgot to show on the drawing.

                      Actually there is a good reason for me to "fix up" these drawings, even though the project is done. That's in case I ever want to change or add to it, since I'll need to re-submit drawings.

                      Sidelinellc: Congratulations, it sounds like you ended up with a good system and a local installer made some money, which is a good thing.

                      I've made the fixes to the files that have been mentioned so far:
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by sdold; 07-25-2014, 05:00 PM. Reason: added files to existing post, instead of creating a new post

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                      • #41
                        Just an fyi NEC 2011 is being enforced since Jan 1 2014. Some big changes from 2008 and 2011 as far as clearance on rooftops, glad I did mine last year.

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                        • #42
                          looks pretty good to me. a little leery of substandard construction though. lol

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Dumbcluck View Post
                            looks pretty good to me. a little leery of substandard construction though. lol
                            It's funny, I've used that title block in three home projects now, no one from the building department has ever asked about it or even mentioned it.

                            MGE: I'm helping a friend with a DIY system in the SF bay area, we were able to convince the city fire authority and building department to give him a variance to the clearance requirements based on ease of access on the side edge (he has a dutch gable with a roof 30" below) and also to allow 30" instead of 36" at the top edge (ridge to array clearance). Hopefully being in the 2014 NEC won't be a problem later. I was surprised at how reasonable the city seemed to be in both my project and his. Maybe they just appreciate that we're trying hard to follow the rules.

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                            • #44
                              drawings, calcs

                              steve, did you do the load calcs for the roof yourself? what exactly did they require from you to get the permits? I am an electrician who would like to install my own system but need the drawings and calcs to get the permits and find a place where I can get all the materials at a reasonable price before starting this project.
                              I am not a c10 contractor myself (ibew prohibits this) but do have friends with c10 license who could assist me in acquiring racking system, panels, inverter and disconnect, etc.
                              I am considering a unirac system, lg panels and fronius ig plus 6ooowatt inverter. so far I have seen this equipment online for under 13k but I know it can be had cheaper using the right avenues. still in the beginning stages of deciding on equipment and placement. I am adding an approx. 400 addition on the back of my house where I would like to mount the bulk of panels and have the roofers install the base of the racking system included with the new roof. sound reasonable?
                              thanks for the helpful information.
                              Last edited by Dumbcluck; 08-17-2014, 03:50 PM. Reason: more info

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Dumbcluck View Post
                                steve, did you do the load calcs for the roof yourself?
                                I did, using ASCE 7-05 Chapter 6 for the wind loads (which I have as a PDF). That version has been superseded by 7-10, but 7-05 was all I had and the city seemed happy with that. I was lucky in that I had some other excellent resources to refer to, such as https://sites.google.com/site/sitechsolar/home among others, unfortunately I hadn't found this site yet. The wind load calcs were the hardest part of the whole job for me because I was trying to understand everything and not just use "cookie cutter" examples.

                                Originally posted by Dumbcluck View Post
                                what exactly did they require from you to get the permits?
                                I don't know what the minimum would have been to satisfy them, but everything in the drawings I supplied plus the cut sheets for the panels and inverters was enough for them. You might download a copy of the California Solar Permitting Guidebook, I used that quite a bit and ended up leaving my printed copy with the AHJ (they had not seen a copy and were happy to have one). At first they did want me to pay for a structural engineer to sign off the mechanical, and I remember standing there thinking how much that was going to cost me. I started stammering about the panels only adding something like three lb/sq-ft dead load, which was much less than the live load capacity (I guessed), and how the panel installation made live loads impossible, and on and on. I felt as if I was trying to talk my way out of a ticket, but in the end they decided that an engineering stamp wasn't required. At least one city I know (Milpitas CA) has a city code section devoted to solar, and specifies that an engineer stamp is only required if the dead load exceeds five lb./sq-ft.

                                A friend is using these: http://www.solartown.com/store/produ...inish-12-pack/, which have engineering data supplied with them listing the pull-out strength for certain woods (including doug fir).

                                The inspector told me that his biggest complaint with solar installations was people not knowing how to do the wiring at the panel (such as the 120% rule), not following NEC 690 in general, and forgetting to follow NEC 705 too (interconnected power sources).

                                Let us know how it goes, it's fun to see other projects.

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