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  • #31
    Originally posted by bcroe View Post
    Yes your results may vary. Retirement isn't the issue, low income is. Solar big enough to do anything isn't cheap. Bruce Roe
    Yes, but there are a few folks who have little in the way of taxable income but significant financial assets. In other words, they may have the financial ability to purchase a solar system but insufficient taxable income to make full use of the tax credits.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Ian S View Post
      Yes, but there are a few folks who have little in the way of taxable income but significant financial assets. In other words, they may have the financial ability to purchase a solar system but insufficient taxable income to make full use of the tax credits.
      And this situation is where a prepaid lease is a perfect fit.
      NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

      [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

      [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

      [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Ian S View Post
        Social Security benefits are not normally taxable unless the recipient has other income that pushes the total above a certain level. Then there's a calculation to be made to determine how much of the SS benefits are subject to tax. The 30% tax credit for solar is non-refundable i.e. you have to have a tax obligation to make use of it. If someone had limited SS income but significant amounts in conventional IRA's, I suppose one could convert some portion of the IRA to a Roth IRA and use the solar tax credit to offset the cost of conversion. Best to talk to a tax adviser to see what the best options might be.
        I've used this tax strategy three years running, works wonderfully. Tax credits will carry over to subsequent tax years, but remember the party is over by the end of 2016.

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        • #34
          I finely sign a pre paid lease today with trinity solar ( sunrun) upfront payment 9,777.02 with tax, 20 year lease no monthly payments, (20/25year guarantee on everything) $2060.00 REBAIT property tax credit (over 4 years $515.00 a year) tax paid refund $421.02, approx $1600/1700 a year savings on con-ed elec bill= after 4 to 41/2years to brake even (I think I hope) did I do the rite thing.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by russ View Post
            Ian gave you an excellent analysis of the situation - much depends on your financial situation and outlook. Some of us prefer only to but while others prefer the lease route.

            Here in Turkey where we have no incentives and duty added none make economic sense unfortunately.

            Keep in mind - the very best cheap power available is through conservation. Sealing the home and other steps can save many kW much cheaper than any panel on the roof.
            I really don't understand why leasing seems so popular. I can see not everyone has $15,000 to shell out, but the money lost by leasing is extremely high here and I will almost guarantee it is the same everywhere. The only incentive I got was federal, no state for property benefits. I called an installer for my system just to check pricing and they wanted $30,000 for a system half the size of mine. The payback time would have been around 15 years compared to my 5. Is there something I am missing here?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by josh26757 View Post
              I really don't understand why leasing seems so popular. I can see not everyone has $15,000 to shell out, but the money lost by leasing is extremely high here and I will almost guarantee it is the same everywhere. The only incentive I got was federal, no state for property benefits. I called an installer for my system just to check pricing and they wanted $30,000 for a system half the size of mine. The payback time would have been around 15 years compared to my 5. Is there something I am missing here?
              I don't understand your point. A monthly lease has no payback period - you start out ahead of the game. A prepaid lease can be significantly less than purchase even after incentives. It all depends on your individual circumstances and what's available in your area.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by josh26757 View Post
                I really don't understand why leasing seems so popular. I can see not everyone has $15,000 to shell out, but the money lost by leasing is extremely high here and I will almost guarantee it is the same everywhere. The only incentive I got was federal, no state for property benefits. I called an installer for my system just to check pricing and they wanted $30,000 for a system half the size of mine. The payback time would have been around 15 years compared to my 5. Is there something I am missing here?
                Josh : You may indeed be missing something. Every situation is not like yours. Pay your money - take your choice. Rule # 1: It's a free country and that includes being free to make decisions others think ill considered.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                  Josh : You may indeed be missing something. Every situation is not like yours. Pay your money - take your choice. Rule # 1: It's a free country and that includes being free to make decisions others think ill considered.
                  Agree, if it still saves money and buying the entire system is not an option then I totally agree; however, my intended question was, is there a situation elsewhere that this actually has a bottom line benefit? I was not suggesting anything "ill considered", but was just asking.....sheeesh!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Ian S View Post
                    I don't understand your point. A monthly lease has no payback period - you start out ahead of the game. A prepaid lease can be significantly less than purchase even after incentives. It all depends on your individual circumstances and what's available in your area.
                    My point is the actual savings. What is the payment for a lease compared to the price of electric? What is the savings each month? I was trying to understand the price per month and the reduction in initial cost to a purchased system's payback period. Is there actually a hidden advantage that I failed to consider? Again, nothing negative here just trying to probe for more information.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by josh26757 View Post
                      Agree, if it still saves money and buying the entire system is not an option then I totally agree; however, my intended question was, is there a situation elsewhere that this actually has a bottom line benefit? I was not suggesting anything "ill considered", but was just asking.....sheeesh!
                      One answer to your question is: If the user thinks there is a bottom line benefit --->> there is - regardless of what others may think. See rule # 1.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by josh26757 View Post
                        My point is the actual savings. What is the payment for a lease compared to the price of electric? What is the savings each month? I was trying to understand the price per month and the reduction in initial cost to a purchased system's payback period. Is there actually a hidden advantage that I failed to consider? Again, nothing negative here just trying to probe for more information.
                        All the sales pitches I've seen for monthly leasing show a savings (lease + new electric bill) over the old electric bill. The actual amount will vary depending on a myriad of factors. In that case you are ahead of the game from day one. The total savings over 20 years may ultimately be far less than if you purchased but then, you're not tying up a large chunk of money upfront. There are other drawbacks to leasing in particular the 20 year payment commitment but saving money from the outset without any out of pocket is a big plus IMHO. One of the things you may not be considering is that the lessor gets an additional tax break through accelerated depreciation that the individual homeowner is not eligible for. Some of that may be passed on to the lessee. In my case, a LOT of it must have been passed on since my prepaid Sunpower lease cost was under $1/watt. I bet Sunpower wishes they hadn't been quite so generous.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ian S View Post
                          All the sales pitches I've seen for monthly leasing show a savings (lease + new electric bill) over the old electric bill. The actual amount will vary depending on a myriad of factors. In that case you are ahead of the game from day one. The total savings over 20 years may ultimately be far less than if you purchased but then, you're not tying up a large chunk of money upfront. There are other drawbacks to leasing in particular the 20 year payment commitment but saving money from the outset without any out of pocket is a big plus IMHO. One of the things you may not be considering is that the lessor gets an additional tax break through accelerated depreciation that the individual homeowner is not eligible for. Some of that may be passed on to the lessee. In my case, a LOT of it must have been passed on since my prepaid Sunpower lease cost was under $1/watt. I bet Sunpower wishes they hadn't been quite so generous.

                          Now that makes since. It was a big loss for me to pay the out of pocket expenses as well, so I fully understand the benefit there. The price of electric here is a lot cheaper than I have seen (0.0944 per KW). You also stated that depreciation could also be split with the installer and that does change the field a bit. There is not much of a market here and I am sure that affects prices. There was little savings to be made with leasing, but I guess where prices are higher it would make sense for everyone to jump on board. I also had to wait a couple years to build the money up and in that time you would have already been saving. Point taken...thank you!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by josh26757 View Post
                            Now that makes since. It was a big loss for me to pay the out of pocket expenses as well, so I fully understand the benefit there. The price of electric here is a lot cheaper than I have seen (0.0944 per KW). You also stated that depreciation could also be split with the installer and that does change the field a bit. There is not much of a market here and I am sure that affects prices. There was little savings to be made with leasing, but I guess where prices are higher it would make sense for everyone to jump on board. I also had to wait a couple years to build the money up and in that time you would have already been saving. Point taken...thank you!
                            At $0.09/kWh, it's hard to make solar really pay. You need huge incentives. The fact that SolarCity doesn't include WV in its list of states shows that leasing probably won't work there.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Ian S View Post
                              All the sales pitches I've seen for monthly leasing show a savings (lease + new electric bill) over the old electric bill. The actual amount will vary depending on a myriad of factors. In that case you are ahead of the game from day one. The total savings over 20 years may ultimately be far less than if you purchased but then, you're not tying up a large chunk of money upfront. There are other drawbacks to leasing in particular the 20 year payment commitment but saving money from the outset without any out of pocket is a big plus IMHO. One of the things you may not be considering is that the lessor gets an additional tax break through accelerated depreciation that the individual homeowner is not eligible for. Some of that may be passed on to the lessee. In my case, a LOT of it must have been passed on since my prepaid Sunpower lease cost was under $1/watt. I bet Sunpower wishes they hadn't been quite so generous.
                              I think that one of the reasons we hear so much negative talk about leasing vs outright purchase of a solar system is the very fact that it is very much dependent on where you live and how much you pay on average for your current power. In states where the cost is less than about .15 per kwh it is hard to make a lease work. but for many who would not otherwise even consider solar and live where there current power costs are much higher it can be a good deal. Who does not want to save money if they can with little or no money out of pocket ?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by wanabefree View Post
                                I think that one of the reasons we hear so much negative talk about leasing vs outright purchase of a solar system is the very fact that it is very much dependent on where you live and how much you pay on average for your current power. In states where the cost is less than about .15 per kwh it is hard to make a lease work. but for many who would not otherwise even consider solar and live where there current power costs are much higher it can be a good deal. Who does not want to save money if they can with little or no money out of pocket ?
                                Yep, saving money for nothing is the same a getting money for nothing. Another good point.

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