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  • #16
    I have a GSHP and read a lot about them.

    I think the COP numbers for GSHP don't include pumping costs, putting air-source slightly closer in COP. I could be

    This link is to a guy in TX that has GSHP, 8-tons worth. Has 8- 300' wells. It works for him, but must have cost a lot! He also has grid-tie solar.
    http://welserver.com/WEL0043/

    Chris

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    • #17
      SunKing, don't hold back, tell me what you really think. LOL So do you just fly into a "freaking rage" every now and then. Maybe some anger management issues? Because I don't understand what makes you think you can talk to others like that. I consider you a friend, so I'm not bothered by what you say any more. I simply choose to laugh off your comments. But I still don't think belittling other people is appropriate for this or any other forum.

      So, I'm here asking these questions because I want to educate myself on the subject. So, are the COP and eer numbers exaggerated on the GSHP systems.

      Chris, thank you for the link.

      Russ, I'm interested in how you want about calculating a ROI, if you can remember.

      Thank you,
      Scott

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      • #18
        Originally posted by t5800512 View Post
        SunKing, don't hold back, tell me what you really think. LOL So do you just fly into a "freaking rage" every now and then. Maybe some anger management issues?
        Not at all, I got you to beat up on every day. I am one of the happiest easy going people you will ever meet in person. I don't have a care in the world.

        Just got over beating prostate cancer. Doctor gave me 3 months to live a year ago. Wife had breast cancer about the same time. Did you ever hear me complain?

        I am Happy Happy to just be alive and kicking your butt.
        MSEE, PE

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        • #19
          Originally posted by t5800512 View Post
          So, I'm here asking these questions because I want to educate myself on the subject.
          OK so start listening. Don't take my word for it solely

          Originally posted by t5800512 View Post
          So, are the COP and eer numbers exaggerated on the GSHP systems.
          That is what we are trying to tell you. A ASHP SEER runs from 13 to about 25, COP from 3.5 to 4.7 or so. A GSHP SEER runs 16 to 28, and COP from 3.5 to 4.9.

          See the over lap? A top of the line 4 ton ASHP with a SEER of 22, COP 4.2 will cost you $5000. Same spec GSHP will cost you $7000 plus $10,000 digging in the dirt, plus landscaping. Both cost the same to operate and last as long. PM on ASHP is less expensive than GSHP.

          So call me a jerk, I do not care about you, just your money. Bet you anything you could care less about me or my money right? At least I care more about your money more than you do. What does your wife and kids think about your money. I bet more than you do.

          Understand?
          MSEE, PE

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          • #20
            Yep, been there done that. I had my prostate removed last year (you know why). And my wife had breast cancer some years back. But we are survivors.

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            • #21
              So that makes cents to me. Get the pun? I'm an engineer and I understand numbers. So maybe you can give me the numbers first next time. Then if that does not work, proceed to rip me a new one. Deal?

              So, did you look at the link above. I have been studying it since I got it. This guy is amazing. I wonder if he has a blog or something somewhere. I would love to ask him some questions.

              By the way, me thinks you worry to much about my money!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by t5800512 View Post
                So that makes cents to me. Get the pun? I'm an engineer and I understand numbers. So maybe you can give me the numbers first next time. Then if that does not work, proceed to rip me a new one. Deal?
                Deal.

                Originally posted by t5800512 View Post
                By the way, me thinks you worry to much about my money!
                F U if you are going to spend my tax dollars. Do it wisely. What you want to do if you do it correctly qualifies for 30% Fed credit. I do not know about you but I like 30% of $6K vs 20K if I am paying. We both win at $6K. We both hurt a little less.

                Understand now?
                MSEE, PE

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                • #23
                  I don't remember exactly and am in India at present while those files are in Turkey.

                  Just take the COP of each unit for comparison. Electric heat has a COP of 1 so say the monthly bill runs 100$.

                  An ASHP with a COP of 3 would have a bill of 33.33$

                  A GSHP with a COP of 4 would have a bill of 25$.

                  Takes a lot of years to pay off the difference in system costs at 8.33$ per month.

                  An ASHP can perform closer to the GSHP for that matter.

                  Russ
                  [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by russ View Post
                    Just take the COP of each unit for comparison. Electric heat has a COP of 1 so say the monthly bill runs 100$.

                    An ASHP with a COP of 3 would have a bill of 33.33$

                    A GSHP with a COP of 4 would have a bill of 25$.

                    Takes a lot of years to pay off the difference in system costs at 8.33$ per month.
                    But any heat pump operating using its auxiliary resistance heat has an effective COP of 1 also. Which is why the value of GSHP over AHSP can be greater in very cold climates. For those winter months, the difference could be as great as $75 per month.
                    I have not done the calculations myself, but I have seen the assertion that an ASHP with SEER of 15 will have a COP of 2.0 at an outside temperature of 0F. Higher SEER heat pumps will do correspondingly better at lower outside temperatures.
                    Less than optimal adjustment of the thermostat can also result in an ASHP going into auxiliary heat mode even when it would otherwise be operating at a good COP.

                    The air handler of any heat pump in heating mode will have to be running at a higher air flow rate than the air handler of an electric or gas furnace, and will also be running proportionally more of the time, increasing the electric power required.

                    And finally for the A/C months, if the outside heat sink temperature is close to or lower than your target inside temperature, the GSHP can be very efficient indeed.

                    As in everything, YMMV, so generalizations are no more than a good starting point for actual calculations.
                    SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by inetdog View Post
                      But any heat pump operating using its auxiliary resistance heat has an effective COP of 1 also.
                      That is why NO one recommends an ASHP as a heat source in cold winter areas.

                      That is why the GSHP are more likely to be a wise choice in Wisconsin but useless in Texas.
                      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by inetdog View Post
                        And finally for the A/C months, if the outside heat sink temperature is close to or lower than your target inside temperature, the GSHP can be very efficient indeed.
                        If that is the case why would one run the AC - I have yet to turn mine on for that matter - the breeze off the bay is normally adequate. A few nights it is warm but I am not starting the system for that.

                        Generalizations:
                        1) ASHP is the better choice for mild climates
                        2) GSHP is better for the frozen north

                        Fact:
                        When the electric resistance heating is on in an ASHP the COP becomes 1 or darn close to it.
                        [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by russ View Post
                          That is why NO one recommends an ASHP as a heat source in cold winter areas.
                          Sadly, some people who are trying to sell ASHPs do recommend it.
                          And if you do not have piped natural gas as an alternative fuel, they can still make economic sense there, just not so good when compared to GSHPs.
                          SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by inetdog View Post
                            Sadly, some people who are trying to sell ASHPs do recommend it. OK - so no one that is not a shyster would not recommend an ASHP for cold climates.
                            And if you do not have piped natural gas as an alternative fuel, they can still make economic sense there, just not so good when compared to GSHPs.Any portable electric heater is probably better

                            If it gets that cold in Izmir we just use the fireplace - fortunately it only lasts for a few days.


                            [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by inetdog View Post
                              But any heat pump operating using its auxiliary resistance heat has an effective COP of 1 also. Which is why the value of GSHP over AHSP can be greater in very cold climates.
                              But Scott is in Dallas TX not Minnesota. In Dallas for a few short weeks in January night time lows average 37 to 39 degrees. Once in a while it will dip sown into the teens when a strong cold front passes through but that only last a couple of days. So if resistance heating is used is short lived. However depending on what neighborhood you live in NG is widely available and is used as emergency heat. In my case LPG which is rarely if ever used during a winter.

                              What Russ and I have been beating on Scott about is pure economics. He can do what he wants for around $6 to $7K with a ASHP. To go GSHP the unit will be around $8 to $10K, plus another $10K in drilling, plus unknown thousands to re landscape his yard once finished. It would be impossible in a 10 to 15 year life span of the product to ever recover the difference. I think Scott finally understands that point.
                              MSEE, PE

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                              • #30
                                I do understand, but I'm having trouble with the numbers. I went to an Energy Star site looking for ultra high efficiency ASHP systems. The systems I'm finding are typically around 20 SEER (13 EER) for a 4 ton split central air system. So, where is the overlap? The Carrier GSHP I had was considering lists: 27.0 EER, 4.6 COP (closed loop). Even higher for open loop. That would indicate that the GSHP is over twice as efficient as the higher rated ASHP systems. So, what am I missing?

                                By the way, I figure no more than $15K for the GSHP system. Remember, I can purchase wholesale and self install the unit.

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