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2 systems - SolarWorld vs. SunPower, decisions decisions ...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by silversaver View Post
    Yes, Solarworld indeed in trouble financially. I'm not betting my money on their panels for sure.

    As far as Enphase microinverter, you are wrong. Enphase does cover part and labor to replace broken unit that included going up rooftop. They have paid for 100% to replace 3 X M190 that fail in last 2 n some years for my friend .


    No, that was true on the old microinverters like what your friend has. Who uses 190 watt microinverters anymore? On the newer microinverters, Enphase does not cover labor. Installers said that the 190's were failing with far too much frequency and Enphase was only offering them a basic $150 to identify the issue, replace the inverter(s) and the install the new ones and installers threw a fit about having to put in travel time and 3-5 hours worth of labor repeatedly so those days are done with, now its up to the consumer to figure out how to diagnose, remove the old microinverter unit and reinstall the new one. As a hint, here in Arizona, non-original installers are charging $250-500 for that service. If you have 5 or 6 of these go out over a period of 5 years, congratulations, you've basically bought yourself a brand new string inverter.


    Here's directly from Enphase's M215 warranty.


    The Limited
    Warranty covers a replacement unit to replace the Defective Product, but does not include labor costs
    related to (1) uninstalling the Defective Product or (2) if applicable, reinstalling a repaired or replacement
    product

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    • #17
      Ok, nicely done. No question, SolarWorld is in a precarious position. I don't think things are quite as dire, but they very well may go under. They have a new life now with the new investment and restructuring of debt (by the way, the shareholders did not get screwed - they simply lost on their investment, it happens). Without crushing debt, and with Chinese dumping limited with tariffs (and I'm not saying that that was a good idea), there is a place for SW. Their panels always are highly rated and they have excellent quality control. The same is true for several other companies like REC, LG, Kyocera. But Sunpower loves to claim that they are simply the best and everyone else is going bankrupt. They produce a good panel, but they have their limitations (like no micro inverters). And they're certainly not worth the premium they charge in some areas. If you can find SP at the same price as others, go with them. Not in my area - I've gotten quotes for 70% higher than equivalent REC, LG, and SW systems. So, I'm suggesting that people sort through the SP marketing and figure out whether the premium is really worth it.

      Most of this doesn't matter if you do a prepaid 20 yr lease. Everyone's situation is different. I probably won't be in the house after 15 years. I'm looking for quality panels, but the system is guaranteed to produce at a certain rate anyway. So, the notion of having to go up on the roof and switch out panels and micro inverters myself if SW and Enphase go out of business is just a scare tactic. My system will produce at the high rate that that equipment is rated for, or it will be replaced by equipment that does produce. (But what if the financing/monitoring company goes out of business? some ask. Well, that's why I'm using equipment that I have faith in, because I like the technology and the track record.) You obviously know your solar stuff, but a lot of highly qualified people disagree with you about micro inverters. So, to each his own.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by bandit02 View Post
        Ok, nicely done. No question, SolarWorld is in a precarious position. I don't think things are quite as dire, but they very well may go under. They have a new life now with the new investment and restructuring of debt (by the way, the shareholders did not get screwed - they simply lost on their investment, it happens).
        Yes, I'm pretty sure retirees who threw money at Solarworld didn't feel "screwed." The result of their debt restructuring means the company is majority owned by a variety of other entities and future cash-flow from investors will be limited after seeing how badly the stockholders got screwed over.

        Without crushing debt, and with Chinese dumping limited with tariffs (and I'm not saying that that was a good idea), there is a place for SW. Their panels always are highly rated and they have excellent quality control. The same is true for several other companies like REC, LG, Kyocera.
        The same is for a dozen other companies. Solarworld has not differentiated themselves from the competition in any meaningful way, thus they end up reduced to a price war that they simply cannot win. This is the biggest criticism of their company by analysts, yeah their panels are good quality, but so are Sharp's, Kyocera's, Schott's, Mitsubishi's, and many more. They don't stand on their own and considering the high price premium they carry, Solarworld has been unable to justify it, hence their desperation move to enact tariff's to literally force the price of solar panels to go up to help them to stay competitive.


        But Sunpower loves to claim that they are simply the best and everyone else is going bankrupt.

        So far they and First Solar are doing the best in terms of overall earnings and stock increases this year, so you can't say they are wrong, especially when dozens of their competitors have gone bankrupt over the past 18 months. Other competitors such as Sharp have cut back on production lines, large corporations such as Bosch, Siemens have gotten out of the solar business, Suntech went bankrupt, So obviously they have been doing something right. While other manufacturers are cutting back on output, SunPower is selling their panels out faster than they can produce them. They're especially thriving in Japan, where high-efficiency panels are not just desired, but mandatory considering the limited space available.



        California solar panel maker SunPower was back in the black in the second quarter as production grew by 15% compared to a year ago.

        The San Jose-based company posted a net profit of $19.6 million between April and June, up from a hefty $84.2 million loss in the second quarter of 2012, while revenue dropped 3.2% to $576.5 million year-on-year. SunPower’s gross margin improved substantially at 18.7%, up from 12.3% in the same period last year and more than doubling from the first quarter of 2013.

        "SunPower's strong results in the second quarter reflect solid operational execution, as well as continued demand for our high efficiency systems in both the power plant and distributed generation channels across all major geographies," said Tom Werner, SunPower president and CEO.

        Werner added that the company’s North American business remained "the cornerstone of our success." SunPower completed panel installation at the 250 MW California Valley Solar Ranch (CVSR) in San Luis Obispo County, with full project completion expected by year end, while construction continues on the 579 MW Solar Star Projects for MidAmerican Solar, which span more than 3,000 acres of land in Kern and Los Angeles Counties in Southern California.

        "Additionally, we strengthened our position as the leader in the commercial market, booking $100 million in commercial projects in the second quarter," Werner said. "In the residential business, demand continues to be solid with $150 million in new lease capacity financing. SunPower is well positioned for success in the second half of the year."

        Business in Japan buoyed operations in the Asia-Pacific region, SunPower's chief executive added. "In APAC, demand in the Japanese market continued to be strong as evidenced by our fourth quarter of record shipments. Our success in Japan reflects that our industry leading technology, reliability and quality remain distinct competitive advantages in this market."
        They produce a good panel, but they have their limitations (like no micro inverters).
        Did I imagine these then? http://us.sunpowercorp.com/homes/pro...e-solar-panel/


        And they're certainly not worth the premium they charge in some areas. If you can find SP at the same price as others, go with them.
        Of course that is entirely your opinion. Considering they are the most widely installed solar panel brand in the U.S. today, a considerable amount of folks disagree with you.



        Not in my area - I've gotten quotes for 70% higher than equivalent REC, LG, and SW systems. So, I'm suggesting that people sort through the SP marketing and figure out whether the premium is really worth it.
        Yeah I think you're exaggerating more than a tad. I worked for several solar companies across 5 different states, the sort of pricing difference you're proposing is ridiculous. Standard price differential for SunPower and Panasonic modules is roughly 20-30% over the cost of standard panels. Typically the difference is about $0.60-$1.00 per watt. With that you're talking about smaller systems and routinely better solar panel output.


        Most of this doesn't matter if you do a prepaid 20 yr lease. Everyone's situation is different. I probably won't be in the house after 15 years. I'm looking for quality panels, but the system is guaranteed to produce at a certain rate anyway.

        What do you do when the people guaranteeing that production aren't around anymore? Just as we see a lot of panel manufacturers staggering and exiting the business, around 2016 you'll see the same for many leasing companies, particularly those whose only business is leasing solar panels.


        So, the notion of having to go up on the roof and switch out panels and micro inverters myself if SW and Enphase go out of business is just a scare tactic.
        Yet it happens regularly. If your lease provider goes out of business, the only assets that others will be interested in are the monthly lease contracts, meaning you are stuck out on a limb and will discover just how important those manufacturer warranties actually are.


        My system will produce at the high rate that that equipment is rated for, or it will be replaced by equipment that does produce. (But what if the financing/monitoring company goes out of business? some ask. Well, that's why I'm using equipment that I have faith in, because I like the technology and the track record.)
        Fine and dandy, but the reality of the situation indicates that Solarworld is on the way out and if the original installer goes out of business, those with microinverters could be on the hook for some substantial costs if they have to replace more than a handful of microinverters.





        You obviously know your solar stuff, but a lot of highly qualified people disagree with you about micro inverters. So, to each his own.
        Unless there's shading issues, there's no real reason to utilize microinverters, you're talking about paying a $0.50 a watt premium for minimal increases in production, and then hoping and praying that a company who has been in business less than 8 years really knows what they are doing to guarantee you a 25 year warranty. I can tell you a couple of the installers I worked for simply stopped offering microinverters completely. It became too much of a hassle, we were regularly having to replace microinverters that went bad less than 2 years into the install. If someone really wants to monitor their panel level production, I'm far more in favor of the Solar Edge technology utilizing optimizers and a tried-and-true central GT inverter. In hot environments, microinverters tend to fare even worse, here in Arizona, I wouldn't advise anyone to install microinverters on any system anywhere in the Phoenix, Havasu or Tucson areas.

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