Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

[bcroe]

Battery Voltage Range

Bruce the last 50% of capacity on Aquion battery is not usable once the voltage drops below 40 to 42 volts on a 48 volt system. The Ri of the Aquion battery is so high forces you to significantly over size the battery by 100%. They are completely useless IMHO, and because of that fact they will go bankrupt when the market discovers that fact. I waited 5 years for them to publish specs. What a disappointment. I really feel sorry for their customers.

I wouldn't argue with that. Its really not the same issue I was referring to.

If in fact the regular cell operating range is 1.25V to 2.45V (1.96:1), Aquion batteries are
a very poor substitute plug in to many existing systems. As I recall most recently we were
designing office equipment to nominally run 39.5V to 54V, with a capability to 60V.
Those were disconnect points.

HOWEVER, the capability to use this range has existed for a while. DC - DC converters with
an input of 36V to 72V are common. Plug ins running on rectified AC will accept 120AC to
240 VAC or anything between. My 7.5KW grid tie inverters have an operating input range of
230V to 500V (with tolerance of 600V). This sort of equipment could run nicely over such
a battery range. So I see this as a matter of bringing the right equipment together; easy for
a brand new design, not so good for current apps.

What I liked most about Aquion, is the ability to tolerate severe DOD for some time without
damage. Lets recommend them to all those people who would wreck their first battery set.
Bruce Roe

[Sunking]

Bruce I agree with what you say about converters. Equipment can be made to work of a 2:1 voltage range. Not at all uncommon. Now put yourself say inside Joe Blow Battery Inverter Manufacture shoes for a minute. Are you going to spend millions to redesign your equipment to work with a queer battery that is way over priced, and take the chance of going bankrupt pricing yourself out of the market passing those cost onto your customers?

[northerner]

Bruce the last 50% of capacity on Aquion battery is not usable once the voltage drops below 40 to 42 volts on a 48 volt system. The Ri of the Aquion battery is so high forces you to significantly over size the battery by 100%. They are completely useless IMHO, and because of that fact they will go bankrupt when the market discovers that fact. I waited 5 years for them to publish specs. What a disappointment. I really feel sorry for their customers.

How often is the last 50% used with FLA's? Not very. Almost everyone recommends running the generator if the DOD with FLA's get close to 50% DOD. The same DOD is readily available with Aquion batteries, and if you size the bank for a normal 20 to 30% daily DOD, there should be no problem with system voltages, providing you don't have extremely heavy loads relative to your overall average load.

I know it would work with my system as my heaviest loads go very occasionally to 2000 or Maybe 3000 watts. Even those loads would pose no problem for an AHI system configured for my needs, where I'm using a daily DOD of 20 to 30 %.

[northerner]

I wouldn't argue with that. Its really not the same issue I was referring to.


What I liked most about Aquion, is the ability to tolerate severe DOD for some time without
damage. Lets recommend them to all those people who would wreck their first battery set.
Bruce Roe

And recommend them to those who are both interested in overall long term savings and minimizing impact on the environment.

[Sunking]

How often is the last 50% used with FLA's? Not very. Almost everyone recommends running the generator if the DOD with FLA's get close to 50% DOD. The same DOD is readily available with Aquion.

No it is not available as that is below 40 volts. No 48 volt equipment can access it. To get the same requires the Aquion to be twice as large. You can take FLA down to 80% DOD if needed. You just canno tlet them stay there or do it often. It is no contest. FLA is better bang for the buck both long and short term.

If the Aquion is so great why do they only warrant them for 24 months A Walmart battery comes with a 24 moth warrant and no hassle claim. A good FLA like Rolls 5000 comes with 7 years at 1/4 the cost and will last longer until proven wrong. Its no contest.

[bcroe]

Bruce I agree with what you say about converters. Equipment can be made to work of a 2:1 voltage range. Not at all uncommon. Now put yourself say inside Joe Blow Battery Inverter Manufacture shoes for a minute. Are you going to spend millions to redesign your equipment to work with a queer battery that is way over priced, and take the chance of going bankrupt pricing yourself out of the market passing those cost onto your customers?

Hey, the CEOs can decide what's in the future, us engineers just tell what works today. Given
our current difficulties with batteries, we should leave no stone unturned. That micro grid
project in HI ought to be a good trial, probably all new equipment. Bruce

[Sunking]

Hey, the CEOs can decide what's in the future

Not IMHO and history says differently. The Market decides, companies just capitalize on the demands.

You are correct the Market demands a better battery. So far Lithium is winning with a huge lead.

[northerner]

No it is not available as that is below 40 volts. No 48 volt equipment can access it. To get the same requires the Aquion to be twice as large. You can take FLA down to 80% DOD if needed. You just canno tlet them stay there or do it often. It is no contest. FLA is better bang for the buck both long and short term.

If the Aquion is so great why do they only warrant them for 24 months A Walmart battery comes with a 24 moth warrant and no hassle claim. A good FLA like Rolls 5000 comes with 7 years at 1/4 the cost and will last longer until proven wrong. Its no contest.

When I said the same depth of discharge, I was referring going to 50% DOD, as with FLA's it's very rare to go below 50%. In fact I avoid it at all costs, as it has the potential to impact overall battery life.

Just looking at the Voltage vs Capacity chart put out by Aquion for the S20 stack, I see you reach the 40 volt cutoff with a 6 amp (240 watt @ 40 volts) current draw at about 40 amp hours. 40 ah/51 ah = close to 80 percent DOD. If you had 12 stacks, (which is what I was thinking of for my system) that would be over 2800 watts capability at close to 80 % DOD. I very rarely have that kind of current draw on my system. Maybe occasionally 2500 watts or so max.

So there you go, you can take an AHI battery down to 80% DOD if you size it for your needs.

As for overall cost, see the previous post about the cost comparisons for various battery types. The Aquion S20 stack came in the lowest! Better bang for your buck in the long run. I do agree that up front cost will be higher.

[Sunking]

So I take it you do not want to answer:

If Aquion is so good to deliver 10,000 cycles to to 80% DOD; Why is there warranty only 2 years?

Seems if they were that good would offer a warranty of something like 60/120 or like Rolls 5000 Series 36/120 with no caveat of DOD or number of cycles. Discharge them 100% each day and get free replacement for 3 years. At 1/4 the cost beats the heck out of Aquion with no C rate constraints or unusable discharge curve. .

[northerner]

So I take it you do not want to answer:

If Aquion is so good to deliver 10,000 cycles to to 80% DOD; Why is there warranty only 2 years?

Seems if they were that good would offer a warranty of something like 60/120 or like Rolls 5000 Series 36/120 with no caveat of DOD or number of cycles. Discharge them 100% each day and get free replacement for 3 years. At 1/4 the cost beats the heck out of Aquion with no C rate constraints or unusable discharge curve. .

If the batteries make it through 2 years, it is highly likely that there is nothing wrong with the manufacturing, and a warranty is not needed beyond this!

[Living Large]

That is not over sized. You have to have 2 to 3 days autonomy to CYA for cloudy days. To get the same usable autonomy using Aquion batteries would require twice the AH capacity at 8 times the cost.

This is precisely why I decided not to use them for my off grid system.

[Amy@altE]

So I take it you do not want to answer:

If Aquion is so good to deliver 10,000 cycles to to 80% DOD; Why is there warranty only 2 years?

Seems if they were that good would offer a warranty of something like 60/120 or like Rolls 5000 Series 36/120 with no caveat of DOD or number of cycles. Discharge them 100% each day and get free replacement for 3 years. At 1/4 the cost beats the heck out of Aquion with no C rate constraints or unusable discharge curve. .

Aquion offers an optional 5 year extended warranty for $99 for a stack and $999 for a module. Much like the GT inverter companies who offer the extended warranties for an additional price.

Amy

[Sunking]

Aquion offers an optional 5 year extended warranty for $99 for a stack and $999 for a module. Much like the GT inverter companies who offer the extended warranties for an additional price.

Amy

I already mentioned that. Something is very wrong because mid to high end FLA batteries have better warranties at 1/4 the cost. Huge Red Flag.

[Living Large]

I already mentioned that. Something is very wrong because mid to high end FLA batteries have better warranties at 1/4 the cost. Huge Red Flag.

Ya know, I honestly have to say I am uneasy of an extended warranty on a battery that is advertised to go to 100% DOD. I am not big on extended warranties in the first place, but on a battery?

[Sunking]

Ya know, I honestly have to say I am uneasy of an extended warranty on a battery that is advertised to go to 100% DOD.

You think? See any Red Flags?