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Aquion Energy up and coming battery....opinions please

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  • #31
    Here is a number of companies over in Europe that are developing a Lithium Sulfur battery for EV's and Military use.

    http://www.renewablesbiz.com/article...riginal-Member

    http://www.oxisenergy.com/

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    • #32
      Aquion-Energy-up-and-coming-batter

      Has there been any further word from Aquion regarding shelving a product?

      Thanks,

      Mott

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      • #33
        Aquion Batteries are now available in Australia , one M100 installed since Sept.14

        Originally posted by nat1971a View Post
        http://www.greentechmedia.com/articl...s-Up-35M-in-VC

        I havent seen much of a discussion on these batteries. I am considering buying these as soon as they start production of them (Q4 2013 apparently). Bill Gates just invested in the company. The technology sounds like it is in the right direction

        Anybody got some inside info they can share?

        Cheers
        Nat
        HI Nat
        Aquion Batteries are now available in Australia. Ist one installed in Northern NSW in September this year .
        This battery is wonderful simple technology , environmental clean and sustainable , way outperforming the conventional batteries for storage with many advantages.
        Jurgen

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        • #34
          I admire Prof Jay Whitacre's progression from LiFePo4 to this chemistry. Makes sense.

          Unless you are in this commercially, the energy-density (physical size), and cost may not make it ideal for most of the readers here.

          You are also dealing with a single-vendor issue, unlike lifepo4 which is everywhere. That is something to consider. Are buyers under non-disclosure-agreements about publishing their own findings? Most of us would like to see more than just sales literature, and can quickly weed that out when presented.

          It is an interesting and viable technology, as long as you are willing to go single-vendor (for now), and the energy-density fits your application.

          Problem is, lifepo4 has been around for a decade or more, and itself is widely misunderstood. At least there aren't any NDA's to deal with as a consumer. I wish Aquion well, but it just doesn't fit my application.

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          • #35
            Schneider rep reports a homeowner just installed Aquion batteries

            I just spoke with a Schneider regional representative, who informed me that a company that installs their equipment just put in a residential system with Aquion batteries. This is encouraging, since I was thinking of using these. He of course gave a disclaimer that Schneider doesn't endorse any battery technology or manufacturer.

            I asked about using them with Schneider equipment, and he said one caution that came to his mind was Aquion advertises high DOD, and the XW MPPT and most charge controllers would have a problem below 40V. Looking at the Aquion data sheet, they in fact show characteristic curves to 40V, and a dotted line extension to 30V. They give specs for both the full voltage range, as well as to 40V mnimum. It isn't clear at a glance to a newbie like myself what amount of DOD one would achieve if restricted to a 40V minimum.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Living Large View Post
              I asked about using them with Schneider equipment, and he said one caution that came to his mind was Aquion advertises high DOD, and the XW MPPT and most charge controllers would have a problem below 40V. Looking at the Aquion data sheet, they in fact show characteristic curves to 40V, and a dotted line extension to 30V. They give specs for both the full voltage range, as well as to 40V mnimum. It isn't clear at a glance to a newbie like myself what amount of DOD one would achieve if restricted to a 40V minimum.
              It means there is no equipment compatible with it. I assume you are talking about a 48 volt nominal system, and 45 volts is as low as it can go.

              So far everything I have read about them is extremely disappointing. As for EV's completely useless with a Specific Energy Density of 20 wh/Kg meaning it would take a 10 pounds of battery to do the job of a 1 pound lithium. On the Renewable Energy side Specific Energy Density is not that big of a deal if space is not an issue because it will take up twice the volume of conventional Pb batteries. But the nail in the coffin is th ebattery voltage operating range of 1.25 to 2.45 volts per cell. For a 48 volt system would be 30 to 59 volts. 48 volt equipment shuts down at 45 volts. No equipment will work with it as of now.
              MSEE, PE

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              • #37
                I know that Midnite Solar has one they were testing with so one would think they are going to support them in some way. It would be a place to check on their answer.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Willy T View Post
                  I know that Midnite Solar has one they were testing with so one would think they are going to support them in some way. It would be a place to check on their answer.
                  Charging batteries is quite different than using them to run an inverter, you may end up having to only use the upper 60% of capacity. I've got somewhat the same issue with my NiFe bank, it too has a wide empty-full range.
                  Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                  || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                  || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                  solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                  gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                    Charging batteries is quite different than using them to run an inverter,
                    Ditto that was my point. Charging is easy, but 48 volt inverters shut down at 45 to 46 volts.
                    MSEE, PE

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                      Ditto that was my point. Charging is easy, but 48 volt inverters shut down at 45 to 46 volts.
                      Yeah, this is a good discussion. I believe the Scheider guy I was speaking with mentioned many inverters not being good for less than 40V. That's bad enough (actually the performance looked workable for my needs). But now I see the XW inverter itself has a minimum input of 44V. That usable window is getting narrower and narrower.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Living Large View Post
                        Yeah, this is a good discussion. I believe the Scheider guy I was speaking with mentioned many inverters not being good for less than 40V. That's bad enough (actually the performance looked workable for my needs). But now I see the XW inverter itself has a minimum input of 44V. That usable window is getting narrower and narrower.
                        Once you factor in battery voltage sag, connection and wire losses you are now looking at 45 to 46 volts. One critical spec the manufacture is hiding is the battery internal resistance is very high, higher than FLA which brings on a whole new set of problems. It means they cannot deliver very high load currents, which means lots of voltage sag under load.
                        MSEE, PE

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                          Once you factor in battery voltage sag, connection and wire losses you are now looking at 45 to 46 volts. One critical spec the manufacture is hiding is the battery internal resistance is very high, higher than FLA which brings on a whole new set of problems. It means they cannot deliver very high load currents, which means lots of voltage sag under load.
                          Just today I looked at AGM batteries, and was very favorably impressed with what I could get for the money - quite a bit less cost than AHI and they will perform better. I didn't understand that I couldn't go under 40V at first. A lot less weight. And they are proven. For the moment, I am off the AHI novelty, which I admit I was enamored with. I don't want to work with non-sealed lead acid at this point.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Living Large View Post
                            I don't want to work with non-sealed lead acid at this point.
                            Why throw out the cheapest and most flexible option?
                            [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by russ View Post
                              Why throw out the cheapest and most flexible option?
                              Fair question. You know each kind has its list of pros and cons. I do hear what you are saying. Let me try to explain my thinking...

                              First, my dad had a Tungar charger - the model that would be in an auto shop, with a rack of like 24 6V batteries in series on charge. He probably had three hygrometers. The 80 pound Tungar mounted on the wall, and had two large tubes with a pleasant glow. But the whole thing kind of turned me off - stocking distilled water, charging with caps off and bubbling electrolyte, checking specific gravity and comparing cell A to cell B, worrying about gas and acid spillage. Hey, it was the 60's, days of leaded gasoline and all. Dad was quite at home in the garage tending to his flock of batteries. Had large incandescent bulbs he used to cycle them. Luckily we have electronics to do a lot of this work now. Yes, it is off grid and I may be looking for things to occupy my time, but I'd like to limit the labor.

                              My system will be in the basement of my house, so I'd really like to not deal with unsealed batteries. Call it a mental thing. I get the economy of FLA - especially considering what I saw in the jump from AHI to AGM. FLA might be 50% of AGM. But I like the mostly sealed aspect and less outgassing. One source I saw says AGM can go to 80% DOD vs 50% for FLA - that caught my eye because I'm leaning towards an undersized (by convention standards) battery bank as user ChrisOlson argues in the pinned thread here. My use will be the same as what he described - off grid house with generator backup. I don't mind running my generator a reasonable amount if it is cost effective, which Chris argues is the case. I haven't studied his post and replies in enough detail yet, but as I read through the entire thread, I kept saying "yes, yes yes." It all made sense. Batteries cost a ton, and weigh a ton, and take up space. When they inevitably have to be replaced, spending half and moving half sounds great. You may recall Chris advises in his experience going to 80% DOD routinely works fine, against common advice and specifications. If AGM is advertised to go to 80% all the better. On this topic, I have spoken to two solar installation professionals, and one with 15 years experience living off grid said "3 days off grid min capacity and more solar than you need" and the other, with only 5 years industry experience said "oh yes, undersized is what I advise." So there are all kinds of thoughts, which is interesting.

                              Those are the chief things I am considering. It would neat to know what % of systems use each kind of battery. My guess is FLA is way out in front. Now I know not everyone drinks from the same fountain as Chris - but even if I end up limiting to 50% DOD, I may wind up with AGM. Let's say I pay $2000 more over 8 years for AGM vs FLA. $2000/8 = $250 a year. I'd pay that premium for peace of mind that may be real or imagined - like I say it is a mental thing.

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                              • #45
                                What I think you have missed is AGM cost twice that of FLA and last only half as long. Essentially long term is going to cost you 400% more. If those are cheap AGM expect to replace them every year or two.
                                MSEE, PE

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