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    I am in Michigan so installing contractors are limited. I would like help full comments and questions on the communication chain related to a solar install at my home. I will do my best to insert the info from my e mail chains here. However I am doing this from a cell phone which is problematic at times.

    Hi Doug,

    With your energy saving endeavors you can decrease the size of the solar array.* Or you can keep the size, bank credits, and use the credits to offset your heating costs in the winter.* Without shading and moderate assistance in brushing off snow this system will generate approximately 7,775kWh a year.* Most people won’t brush off snow unless the grid is down.

    The battery bank size you request is quite large.* It is 38.4kWh of storage.* With a 60% discharge this will give you 23kWh of usable storage.* With an average usage of 400kWh a month/ under normal conditions/ you should be able to cut that usage in half when the grid is down.* This will give you almost a week of autonomy without any recharge from the panels.*

    So here is a narrative and budget – This is minus batteries.* I have listed an adder for the batteries at the bottom.* Because of the high proportion of the cost that is the batteries I figured it would be best to list them this way.

    24 – SolarWorld 285w panels – 4,480w system

    - Outback Radian GS8048 inverter charger (8,000w inverter w/ 12,000w surge)

    - Outback Radian load center #GSLC175-PV-120/240

    - Patriot solar racking set to a 35 degree angle – 90’ from the home

    Total cost for turnkey system (minus batteries) - $26,875.00

    Batteries

    8 – 8G8DLTP – 12vdc 265Ah batteries wired together as a 48vdc – 530Ah battery bank - $6,465.00

    This is at least a starting point for us to narrow down what will make sense for you.

    Sincerely,

    Mark*

    Mark yes I would like you to quote a turn key system. I am afraid of the cost and have an idea of what I can reasonably afford. But I want to here what the outcome is. The kw of storage is a really convoluted conversation. *We just made some big changes this week end to get ready for this. We bought a new energy star refrigerator and bought a propane dryer. The refrigerator should save us 300 kw a year in usage and the dryer about 60 per month. I am hoping to get to a sustainable 400 or less kw of consumption.*

    Due to the crap production I am concerned the quantity of panels we are discussing here will not be enough in December that is why I am interested in the ins and outs of a high bread system.

    *

    All the math shows I need 1000 ah battery bank but the cost would be so limiting.

    *

    I want a 800 plus ah 48 volt battery system. It will be in my basement so it will need to be gel type or if you know of any other cost similar technology.*

    Hi Doug!

    Few things;

    - The 280w panels are now no longer available – they are now 285w.* So 24 – 285 would be a 6.84kW solar array.* This should produce a little more power than your 640kwh a month usage.

    - How many kWh’s worth of storage would you like?*

    *- Did you want us to quote the installation?

    Sincerely,

    Mark
    Mark,*

    This is Douglas the family that visited you a few weeks ago.

    *

    I would like a proposal to consider cost options and start consideration for cost.

    *

    I would like a ground mount system. No roof mount.

    *

    The solar array will need to be 90 feet from the basement where the equipment will be placed.

    *

    I want a gel type battery backup because they will be placed in the basement. This will eliminate venting.

    *

    We have average ed 640 kw hours per month. *We have been changing all of our lights to led.

    *

    I would like an array of 24 280 watt solar world pv cells.

    *

    From everything I can read. I need a minimum of a 6000 watt inverter. *The inverter will need to capable of 240 volt output to power the well.

    *

    I want to explore the cost of it being grid tied so the power is not being wasted in open circuitry when the batteries are fully charged.

    *

    Their are many things to discuss here but I would like to see a proposed cost and itemized lists of components.

    *

    Please get back with me on this.

  • #2
    If you are grid connected you have absolutely no use for batteries, a hybrid inverter, and all the expensive equipment associated with batteries.
    MSEE, PE

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    • #3
      why solar at all

      If I am grid tied. And my electric bill average is 100 per month. Why do I need a solar system at all?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Douglas View Post
        If I am grid tied. And my electric bill average is 100 per month. Why do I need a solar system at all?
        What state are you in and how much do you pay for a Kwh will answer your question.

        Anything you take off grid, just the battery initial and replacement cost is going to be around 75-cents per Kwh. If you live in the USA depending on which state you live in charges you 6-cents on the low end up to 30 cents in states like California who have to import a large portion of their electricity from other states. It would be extremely foolish to take anything off-grid if you are connected or can be connected. Well you may not think so if you want a 1000% increase in your electric bill all paid up front in cash every 5 years. That much battery power requires EPA permits, spill containment, and yearly inspections by your local FD so they know to stay away if the house burns, and who to send the bill to if you have a spill.

        If you live in a state like Michigan, Washington, Minnesota with fairly low electric rates, no sun in winter, very few incentives from your neighbors to pay for it, not even a Grid Tied System will ever have an ROI or EROI.
        MSEE, PE

        Comment


        • #5
          no rate of return

          I live in Michigan. Less than 600 kw is 8 cents over 600 is 11.9 cents. I do not believe I will qualify for any incentives. I am male white and I work for a living.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Douglas View Post
            If I am grid tied. And my electric bill average is 100 per month. Why do I need a solar system at all?
            You don't. It would take years (~20) to pay back, because $100 mo bill is very small. You are likely in the lowest tiers. at the lowest rates. Now my Aunt, in her all electric house (natural gas phobia) in sunny Santa Barbara, with a SW roof, and a 800mo bill, could benefit greatly, but it would change the look of a spanish style house with white tile roof, so she just pays on.......
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Douglas View Post
              I live in Michigan. Less than 600 kw is 8 cents over 600 is 11.9 cents. I do not believe I will qualify for any incentives. I am male white and I work for a living.


              Then why are you want solar? I am from Jamaica and I used to pay 40 to 45 US cents per KWH before the oil drop to 55 dollars per barrel, now we pay around 38 to 40 cens per KWH and we have sun 12 months in the year that is why I go solar.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by paulcheung View Post
                Then why are you want solar? I am from Jamaica and I used to pay 40 to 45 US cents per KWH before the oil drop to 55 dollars per barrel, now we pay around 38 to 40 cens per KWH and we have sun 12 months in the year that is why I go solar.
                Because I feel that we are at a tipping point world wide. And I want to be the straw that breaks the economic back of the oil companies distribution system and the taxation structure.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                  If you live in a state like Michigan, Washington, Minnesota with fairly low electric rates, no sun in winter, very few incentives from your neighbors to pay for it, not even a Grid Tied System will ever have an ROI or EROI.
                  Living in Minnesota, where I should be at break-even in 5-8 years on my panels, I beg to differ with this statement.
                  16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Douglas View Post
                    Because I feel that we are at a tipping point world wide. And I want to be the straw that breaks the economic back of the oil companies distribution system and the taxation structure.
                    So what does oil have to do with electricity? NOTHING. Electricity is generated from coal, natural gas, and uranium.

                    You stated yourself you live in Michagan and there are hardly any companies installing solar. Why is that?

                    Simple, economics do not work where you live. In order for solar to be economical you have to have a lot of conditions to make it work.

                    • Excellent year round average Solar Insolation measured in Sun Hours. Michigan has poor Solar Insolation
                    • High electric rates. Michigan has very low electric rates
                    • Excellent state local incentives from Power Company. In other words all you neighbors have to pay artificially high electric rates to pay for your system cost. Your state does not mandate utilities do that. Those that do allow the utilities to past those cost to rate payers.
                    • Net metering laws that force utilities to pay you retail prices on your excess generation to build up during summer for you to bank and use after dark and in winter months. Michigan has that but does not mandate the utilities to carry the credits past the next billing cycle. That means if you do not use the credits in the next billing cycle you loose them meaning you end up generating a lot of electricity and give it away. You cannot bank it to be used during winter months.


                    That is why you do not see much interest in solar in your state. It math just does not work in your state.
                    MSEE, PE

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