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  • Im a newbie and i need help with planning my system

    Hello, my Name is Tyler and I'm from Ohio. Well I’m saving up for a solar system, at fist I would like this to be a grid tie, then work in a battery back up down the road and I have the numbers for what my finished product will need. I will be mounting these in a side yard; I most likely will not need help with the mounting of the panels. The only question I have for that would be, is it true that I want to slant my panels according to my latitude and longitude? Also if I’m trying to run my whole house should I go 24V or 48V? I know the higher voltage allows for less resistance threw the wires but that’s about all I have on that information.
    My Arrays will produce roughly 25,000w if my estimations are correct. I run about 3,000kw a month (There are many factors that go into this, I don’t own the house I’m in and I cannot make changes to anything that the house uses for sewage and the sub pump is only like 15gallons so it kicks on a lot. I also have a second family in this property, somewhat like a duplex) If I need 3,000kw = 3,000,000w that’s 100,000w a day for 30days, I live in Ohio so the average is 4.2 I like to round down on numbers like this so I went to 4 hours for 25,000w an hour. Are these calculations correct? I have worked with construction and rewiring (from breaker to rooms) in a few houses but I don’t know a lot about electricity. I would like to go with micro inverters but due to me having to get 125 panels (200w or 59 425w panel) it will get costly fast. My next question is can I have a pure sign wave inverter and have a few panels with micro inverters and just add on as I acquire more currency?
    Now to my charger controller questions. I read that each controller takes so many amps. So I read that to get the amps that your running you need to use this formula (amps=watts/volts). So If I need a system for about 32kw (25kw x .25=6,250 + 25kw= 31,250kw) and I take that with a 24v system its 1,303Amps? (For 24V its 652Amps) Would the amps be the same for the Inverter as well?
    Lastly I need to know where some people buy there equipment at, I have searched all over and I found some panels at a cheep price of .28/w and .48/w at http://sunelec.com/ there’s been some bad reviews of this place from the past but that was about 4 years ago and now they hold a A+ rating on another site I found. I would really like to get the panels for under $1/w if possible, or if there are any kits that will match my needs that would be great too. Thank you for all your time!

  • #2
    Whoa. Don't buy anything yet. Lets sort some stuff out first.

    Any large system will likely require mods to your main electrical panel.

    All work will need permits, and City and likely Utility inspections. EACH add-on of more panels/inverters requires new permits and inspections.

    If you don't own the property, the owner inherits the improvements. (Such a nice gift, thank you)

    Pure Grid Tie. No batteries to water or replace. No Charge Controller (no batteries to charge). The power you produce, gets used right at your house, any surplus unwinds your meter total. This system can save you money, with a 10 - 15 year payback. You can add a Transfer switch and backup generator for occasional power outages. PV runs at about 500VDC

    Pure Off-Grid Monthly battery watering. 5-10 year battery replacement schedule. Must plan with 90% perfection or you loose. (loose money and power). Weekly tinkering required. Careful (daily) monitoring of power levels required. Backup Generator required, 2 recommended. PV runs around 100VDC. Generally a 48V battery bank, managed by a Charge Controller. You (or someone living there) become the Power Plant Engineer.

    With either of the above systems, only the PV panels and racks are common to both. It's expensive to "change your mind".

    Hybrid System Much like Pure Off-Grid, with the option to sell any excess power to the Grid. The Hybrid Inverter costs more than either of the 2 previous system inverters. A transfer switch is needed, sometimes it's internal to the inverter.
    Only recommended if your power grid is notoriously unreliable with several long outages a month.
    Last edited by Mike90250; 01-18-2015, 12:05 AM.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
      All work will need permits, and City and likely Utility inspections. EACH add-on of more panels/inverters requires new permits and inspections.

      If you don't own the property, the owner inherits the improvements. (Such a nice gift, thank you)
      This is the law most places - anything fixed to the property becomes part of the property - and belongs to the owner of that property - not you.
      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

      Comment


      • #4
        Your battery based system will cost much more than power from the power company. Look at your numbers closely before buying anything. You might also want to learn the difference between a kW (kilowatt) and a kWh (kilowatt hour). It is an important distinction.
        CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
          Whoa. Don't buy anything yet. Lets sort some stuff out first.

          Any large system will likely require mods to your main electrical panel.

          All work will need permits, and City and likely Utility inspections. EACH add-on of more panels/inverters requires new permits and inspections.

          If you don't own the property, the owner inherits the improvements. (Such a nice gift, thank you)

          Pure Grid Tie. No batteries to water or replace. No Charge Controller (no batteries to charge). The power you produce, gets used right at your house, any surplus unwinds your meter total. This system can save you money, with a 10 - 15 year payback. You can add a Transfer switch and backup generator for occasional power outages. PV runs at about 500VDC

          Pure Off-Grid Monthly battery watering. 5-10 year battery replacement schedule. Must plan with 90% perfection or you loose. (loose money and power). Weekly tinkering required. Careful (daily) monitoring of power levels required. Backup Generator required, 2 recommended. PV runs around 100VDC. Generally a 48V battery bank, managed by a Charge Controller. You (or someone living there) become the Power Plant Engineer.

          With either of the above systems, only the PV panels and racks are common to both. It's expensive to "change your mind".

          Hybrid System Much like Pure Off-Grid, with the option to sell any excess power to the Grid. The Hybrid Inverter costs more than either of the 2 previous system inverters. A transfer switch is needed, sometimes it's internal to the inverter.
          Only recommended if your power grid is notoriously unreliable with several long outages a month.
          I understand the permits and inspections, I didnt know i would need multiple if i added on so thank you for that. With how im going to run my system I would prefure to have a hybrid system so that i can switch off grid (if needed). I didnt know there was a hybrid inverter so that helps alot too. Would i be able run micro inverters with the main hybrid inverter or you cant have both? I would like to incorporate the micro inverters encase there's any shade or if i have any issues. I would like to go without the back up generator if possible? Is my math correct on finding how many watts and amps i need? Can i put multiple inverters together to match the max output? I have limited resorses on searching things with a computer but i have already done about 20 hours or resurch and im still no where near where i need to be, also my system is still in planning i wont be buying anything for at least a year.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by russ View Post
            This is the law most places - anything fixed to the property becomes part of the property - and belongs to the owner of that property - not you.
            Im sure i will have moved by the time i have the money for my system, however the extra people would move with me so my power would stay about the same.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by sensij View Post
              Your battery based system will cost much more than power from the power company. Look at your numbers closely before buying anything. You might also want to learn the difference between a kW (kilowatt) and a kWh (kilowatt hour). It is an important distinction.
              KW= 1000w and KWH is how many KW get ran an hour (most likely a total due to 1kw being a lot for an appliance) if there's more to this please explaine

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shadowaxe356 View Post
                KW= 1000w and KWH is how many KW get ran an hour (most likely a total due to 1kw being a lot for an appliance) if there's more to this please explaine
                Pardon my butting in here. Since you ask, and FWIW, I'll offer a respectful attempt at an explanation.

                I appreciate the confusion that caused the post about units. The original post seemed to not use the proper, or correct unit convention(s), or the appropriate, conventional and respectful capitalization as is common for that matter. This seems like separating fly crap from pepper until one realizes that incorrect use of what is usually understood can cause confusion and mistakes. Also, it probably does not add to some readers'/responders' level of confidence in the poster's level of sophistication about the subject. Some with such an opinion may choose to not to indulge in what they may consider a waste their time. I'd simply say thank you for pointing out my error(s), correct for the future, and move on.

                Take what you need/like. Scrap the rest.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Mixing
                  No need to mix, solar panels in the shade are pointless, so don't put them there.

                  but, no, you can't mix micro-inverter with hybrid battery systems. (you could possibly AC couple them, but it all falls apart when you have a good sunny day and the micros boil your batteries because you have no way to control their output)
                  SMA has a system that might mix their hybrid inverter, with micro inverters, as the batteries charge up, the inverter shifts frequency and that starts to knock the micros off-line..

                  But why waste a panel in shade? There are also some reliability questions with the micro's too, which are starting to show up in the field.

                  /////


                  Wattage and hours

                  Pumps are high power devices, my 1/2 hp pump consumes 1,000 watts, so I only run it on sunny days.
                  1,000 watts for 3 hours, and it consumes 3Kwh of power.

                  40 watts of lighting, on for 5 hours = 200 watt hours ( or .2Kwh)
                  Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                  || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                  || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                  solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                  gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shadowaxe356 View Post
                    I would prefure to have a hybrid system so that i can switch off grid (if needed).
                    That would be a huge mistake on you rpart and a very expensive lesson tou will not like one little bit as it will cost you thousands of dollars.

                    Any power coming from batteries will cost you roughly 10 times more than buying it from the power company. Used infrequently as you intend can be up to 100 times more expensive. Be careful what you ask for.
                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                      That would be a huge mistake on you rpart and a very expensive lesson tou will not like one little bit as it will cost you thousands of dollars.

                      Any power coming from batteries will cost you roughly 10 times more than buying it from the power company. Used infrequently as you intend can be up to 100 times more expensive. Be careful what you ask for.
                      Are car batterys an ok deep cell to use? I really want the ability to switch if theirs a power outage we have had at least once a year and it always lasts a week or so.

                      also dose anyone know if you can use multiple inverters to match voltage/amp output from panels or do you have to use one unit.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                        Mixing
                        No need to mix, solar panels in the shade are pointless, so don't put them there.

                        but, no, you can't mix micro-inverter with hybrid battery systems. (you could possibly AC couple them, but it all falls apart when you have a good sunny day and the micros boil your batteries because you have no way to control their output)
                        SMA has a system that might mix their hybrid inverter, with micro inverters, as the batteries charge up, the inverter shifts frequency and that starts to knock the micros off-line..

                        But why waste a panel in shade? There are also some reliability questions with the micro's too, which are starting to show up in the field.

                        /////


                        Wattage and hours

                        Pumps are high power devices, my 1/2 hp pump consumes 1,000 watts, so I only run it on sunny days.
                        1,000 watts for 3 hours, and it consumes 3Kwh of power.

                        40 watts of lighting, on for 5 hours = 200 watt hours ( or .2Kwh)
                        In Ohio the weather is bipolar, are high in my city was 63 F and a low of -15 cloud cover varied would micros help in this instance?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shadowaxe356 View Post
                          In Ohio the weather is bipolar, are high in my city was 63 F and a low of -15 cloud cover varied would micros help in this instance?
                          NOT A BIT.

                          Micro inverters are for tileing your roof with PV, and you have unavoidable shadows that move across it. The shadow will deactivate a "String" inverter, but micro inverters just shut off sequentially as the shadow comes and goes.
                          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                            NOT A BIT.

                            Micro inverters are for tileing your roof with PV, and you have unavoidable shadows that move across it. The shadow will deactivate a "String" inverter, but micro inverters just shut off sequentially as the shadow comes and goes.
                            If I use a central inverter all my power will be as strong as my weekest panel right?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shadowaxe356 View Post
                              If I use a central inverter all my power will be as strong as my weekest panel right?
                              Weakest panel? What and why is that?
                              [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                              Comment

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