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  • Farming solar

    Would it be possible to turn private land in a low populated region into a power plant that feeds the grid?

    Or in simpler terms can you make use of unused country land, profitably, by throwing an 1 acre solar generation field on it?

  • #2
    Originally posted by metafarm View Post
    Would it be possible to turn private land in a low populated region into a power plant that feeds the grid?

    Or in simpler terms can you make use of unused country land, profitably, by throwing an 1 acre solar generation field on it?
    The idea gets brought up from time to time.
    Some of the factors that keep it from happening everywhere are:
    1. You need to be conveniently located to high enough capacity distribution or transmission lines to carry your power output to the rest of the grid. This is less likely to happen in a low population region. It is always better, if possible, to keep the generation as close as possible to the load it will serve.
    2. You need to have good road access for the construction phase and it would be nice to have for ongoing maintenance as well.
    3. The cost of the land to put the panels and inverters on is small compared to the cost of the rest of the equipment and infrastructure, so there is not a lot of motivation to develop on out of the way land.
    4. There is limited money available to build large PV plants right now, so there are a lot more places where you will not find them than there are places you will find them
    5. Beyond a certain level of generation, adding more PV without coming up with accompanying energy storage for time shifting will tend to destabilize the grid.
    SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

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    • #3
      Most investors that are building a solar farm as you describe will usually get a commitment from a Utility or User to purchase the electricity produced for a fixed $/kWh over a period of time called a "purchase power agreement" or PPA.

      Now that you know you have a "customer" you may be able to get funding to build the system. The big road block as inetdog pointed out is the availability of a power grid close by that you will be "allowed" to connect to. If the Utility doesn't want a "power generator" in their neighborhood they won't let you connect it. If they are ok with it you will still have to meet their regulations as being a "power generator" which probably includes a certain amount of liability insurance and safety equipment to keep your system from hurting theirs.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
        Most investors that are building a solar farm as you describe will usually get a commitment from a Utility or User to purchase the electricity produced for a fixed $/kWh over a period of time called a "purchase power agreement" or PPA.
        Problem is that is not a free market and artificially inflates electric rates.

        Electricity is a commodity and traded as such. As a buyer you are looking for the lowest price. Solar cannot compete in a Free Market. Just like when you buy gasoline if one station is selling for $3/gal and the one next door sells for $5/gal, the one selling for $5/gal goes bankrupt.
        MSEE, PE

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sunking View Post
          Problem is that is not a free market and artificially inflates electric rates.
          That is a free market.
          It is two companies coming to agreed upon terms and signing a contract for those terms to be spread over a long period of time.

          If we were to allow you to cancel that contract because you think one party is not getting a good deal, *that* would be not a free market.

          There are plenty of regulations (conditions imposed on the "free market" ) that are imposed on power companies. And most of them do cost money that results in higher electric rates. For example, the power company's lines have to be generally unreachable by the public (high up on poles or underground inside conduits) And that is a significant cost for the power company (which we as consumers have to pay for) BUT it also is a significant benefit to the public as well.

          A utility signing a PPA with a power generator just isn't a case of regulation. They sign those same agreements with every type of generator - it's not something unique to solar.

          Back to the original question - there are spots where these panel farms make sense (ex. east of Los Angeles in the desert there are a few of them)
          But IMO usually they make more sense in a spot where the panels provide a secondary benefit of shade for the cars in a parking lot. (And they're then right next to consumers of the power being generated)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by foo1bar View Post
            That is a free market.
            It is two companies coming to agreed upon terms and signing a contract for those terms to be spread over a long period of time.

            If we were to allow you to cancel that contract because you think one party is not getting a good deal, *that* would be not a free market.
            There is the flaw in your argument. As a solar generator you cannot compete within a commodity spot market. If you were to lock in at the high summer peak rates of $50/Mwh would bankrupt you as it would take $100/Mwh to break even in 20 years.

            No company unless a gun is being held to their head would ever sign a PPA at a price high enough for the investor to even have a chance at a ROI. To make it happen would be poor state energy policy that require utilities to use RE forms which cost are past on to customers. That would be the Gun I spoke of earlier.
            MSEE, PE

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            • #7
              Profit Idea 1 - Mini Plant

              Well it looks like it's not affordable right now and your best bet for doing something like this would be through being granted a contract by the City, county, or whoever is running the utility system. In the area that I am in there is only one provider of electricity and it's the city who leases power from the nuclear plant.

              Which means the only way to make money as a plant would be to 1) raise the plant in a populated area 2) sell energy cheaper than the city 3) use profits to lease use of the grid system. Which seams like in this project there would be red tape at every juncture that might kill the project before it gets started.

              Who owns the grid system?

              Statement: I am making most assumptions not based on research but on deductive reasoning so whatever I say is liable to be wrong.

              Profit Idea 2 - Commercial

              Next way to profit seems to be 1) find companies that use a lot of power 2) develop a plant to assist with their power consumption 3) the system pays for itself (including your installation and maintenance fees) in X years and begins a return on investment after X years.

              Problem with this system is that if X is 20... in 20 years tech will have improved to make whatever panels you are currently using dinosaurs and wasteful. Which means instead of buying the panels outright from the manufacturer, you may want to develop a rent/lease system instead so when the new tech is available it could be switched out. ... not sure how that works.

              If the idea can be sold, installed, then maybe we can let the clients deal with legacy panel issues themselves when the time comes. Or have them invest more for upgrades.

              Profit Idea 3 - Residential

              Do what companies are doing now. Provide residential PV consulting and installation & maintenance services.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                There is the flaw in your argument. As a solar generator you cannot compete within a commodity spot market.
                Obviously they don't even try to compete in the spot market, since as was already stated instead they sign an agreement for their power to be purchased.

                If you were to lock in at the high summer peak rates of $50/Mwh would bankrupt you as it would take $100/Mwh to break even in 20 years.
                Not even sure what your point is here.

                But obviously the utility companies are building these solar farms. Either by signing the contracts with another company who owns them/maintains them, or by building the farms themselves.

                No company unless a gun is being held to their head would ever sign a PPA at a price high enough for the investor to even have a chance at a ROI. To make it happen would be poor state energy policy that require utilities to use RE forms which cost are past on to customers. That would be the Gun I spoke of earlier.
                The renewable energy requirements are one of the regulations they have to deal with. And it probably does result in higher costs customers in some areas - but so does a lot of the regulations the power company has to deal with. If most people thought those regulations were costing them too much for the benefit society receives, you'd see those regulations changed. If you think it's because people are uninformed, feel free to try to inform people about it. I think it's because they can see that the benefits are worthwhile and the costs are low enough.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by foo1bar View Post
                  But obviously the utility companies are building these solar farms. Either by signing the contracts with another company who owns them/maintains them, or by building the farms themselves.


                  The renewable energy requirements are one of the regulations they have to deal with. And it probably does result in higher costs customers in some areas - but so does a lot of the regulations the power company has to deal with. If most people thought those regulations were costing them too much for the benefit society receives, you'd see those regulations changed. If you think it's because people are uninformed, feel free to try to inform people about it. I think it's because they can see that the benefits are worthwhile and the costs are low enough.
                  While some Utilities are building solar farms, and may actually make a profit from them, most are doing this because the State Government requires the Utility to have a certain percentage of all generation to be from renewable. Trust me when I say the Utility would rather use cheaper ways to generate electricity but because of the state laws and to show they are contributing to being "green" the Utilities are getting into solar.

                  Now that some have come close to meeting the RE % goals there is a lot of activity to try to get the solar customer to pay more to use solar or the Utility pays them less for the electricity the little guy generates. One way or the other the Utility will get back some of what it lost getting into solar.

                  If you think the people of the state will start to complain because it is costing them more to purchase electricity they really have no say in the matter because the state government will not listen to them. This is the problem we have in Florida where the state gov and Utilities are working together to get what they want and not what the people want. I guess that is what elections are for but somehow the people get swayed and still vote in the wrong person.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by foo1bar View Post
                    I think it's because they can see that the benefits are worthwhile and the costs are low enough.
                    Think anything you want and pay anything you want for power - your right no matter how wrong.
                    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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