[Beginner] Considerations, planning, questions..

First thing you need to know is anything, and I mean anything you take off grid is going to cost you roughly 10 times more than the mean ole power company charges you for the rest of your life paid up front in cash in 5 year increments each time you replace the batteries.

Still want to go off grid? Instead of paying that mean ole power company 11-cents per Kwh for all the power you want with no limitation, you can pay your local friendly green energy battery guy over $1 per Kwh and make him filthy rich. I know that sounds sarcastic, but that is exactly what you are asking for.

The best reason why you can't find any good information on a system that you want to put in is because it is very very expensive and not economically worth it if you already have the ability to use the Utility Grid.

Sure there is a number of procedures and qualifications to install a Grid Tie system but in the end they usually pay for themselves.

There are also good reasons to have an "off-grid" system because of a chosen lifestyle or no Utility grid available for the location but when I say a lifestyle change I mean a big change.

And finally if you really don't have the funds to spend you really can't start small and grow an "off grid" system. That is because what you start out with will be too small and can't be used on an even slightly larger off grid system. That means you throw away those batteries and charge controller and buy a bigger set. Again not economical in my book.

So while I commend your desire to go solar I will caution you that your plan is not a good idea and if funds are tight now then going off-grid will just make them much tighter.

Yes, I even linked to your stickied thread, dedicated for this topic in the first post.
And frankly, I was shocked to discover this HUGE letdown for offgrid system. I always thought that going solar would mean substantial initial investment that would earn itself back, slowly. off-grid, or on.


HOWEVER.

-Going with grid-tied system is not viable for me. Because of bureaucratic process to become a producer for electricity, to fully utilize grid tied system is a hassle. It requires specific equipment, installed by a professional.
So.... huge investment, a lot of paperwork initially, as well as down the line.... Definitely not what I'm looking for, at all.

-Even when "the plan" does not hold water economically, I would still like to dabble solar. Even if it would be just a solar lighting project I described in step 1 & 2. Even if it would be for self-education project. After all, that's why I'm here.... I'm in need of suggestions on what route to take.
If I would set out to do a solar lighting project, I would approach it much differently than right now, when I'm thinking about possibility of off-grid(hybrid) system expanding trough a lot of / most, if not all, electronics in the future.

-I still think off-grid COULD be viable option, even economically, down the road. Technology progresses fast, and faster. Who knows what technologies, as well as prices, we will see in batteries (as well as solar panels.. ) in 5 years, 10 years...
For example, Tesla Gigafactory aims to pull down battery-pack prices more than 30% alone by 2017. My lead-acid battery would still last some years after that. And that is real, not a hope that someone, somewhere will somehow discover something that will make the technology cheaper. And in 5-10 years, with such a tech like solar/wind, as well as related tech like EV's which are all growing largely with almost daily innovations... in addition to constantly lowering the price of current (battery) tech.....


...it's good to dream
But as for me... I'm not looking to invest myself in it over my head. I'm not in rush, but I would like to start. But start by also thinking about the potential future.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is:
I don't really care for the economics of the present. I'm pretty much purely interested if my "plan" is technologically viable, and smart route to take.


Also I'm still looking for information on the question I posted at the end of my first post. But this time I made a little image to illustrate.


Would this work?
Basically...if the battery voltage drops under X volts, the transformer kicks in to charge the batteries.
So in theory, if there's no sun, the batteries would act kind of like a UPS on regular grid.
To my logic, this would extend the battery life, and provide a backup for dark times, when there's not enough sun.
And even if the batteries die, you'd still have electricity, Even if it's not all solar.

And what about li-ion?


EDIT
Sorry, I started writing this reply before your posted...

Can you not expand the solar array and battery bank without replacing all the batteries and controllers?

Anyway. I do realize my "goal system" is way out of my league right now. But I would like if the possibility to extend was there, you know?

On-grid system really isn't worth it here. I live in Estonia, we have the lowest PV production in all of EU, by far, and I feel there's a good reason for it. The bureaucracy is designed so it's really hard to utilize grid-tied system for homes. And full off-grid would be utopia, especially in this climate. So if I want to utilize solar I pretty much have to think about some unconventional hybrid.


But I trust you guys know your stuff, and facing the reality I probably have no choice but to either drop the idea, or at most do the solar-lighting project.... which would still be a huge annoyance if I can't tie it in with grid for winter.

The technology to do what you ask is there and even though money is no object, even a small system can cost a lot.

Where you have the "transformer" in you diagram is really a battery charger that gets it's power from the Grid. It is "similar" to the "controller" which is a battery charger that gets it power from the solar panel.

What you also need is to have sensing equipment to know when the solar panel is not producing or if your battery voltage is getting too low. Then through controls it would turn on the Grid tie battery charger for the batteries.

Now here is where you are wrong. It doesn't matter if you charge from the sun, grid battery charger or even a generator your batteries will not last any longer and will need to be replaced in 4 to 5 years.

While there has been breakthroughs in Solar and Battery design I sincerely believe that Tesla or anyone else coming up with a better solar storage system that is affordable in this decade is very remote.

So while I support your desire to build a small solar battery system I also caution you that believing it will perform the way you want it to do and won't cost much is a dream.

It is certainly good to dream and imagine possibilities to extend one's experience and knowledge base.

Money seems to be not a major concern for what you have in mind. So be it. Amen. Knowledge for its own sake. It's still cheaper to dabble with your brain before your wallet.

Since you came here asking questions and sounding as if you want straight answers, I'd assume you think people here are somewhat knowledgeable.

So far, to me anyway, your scenario is similar to folks who post here with a preconceived notion of how all this works, have their minds made up and don't want to be confused with the opinions of a lot of people who have already traveled the road you've started down.

They then often get frustrated and feel verbally abused when the people they asked for advice tell them things that don't match their view of reality, however contrary that opinion may be to knowledge and experience.

I'd suggest learning from the experience and mistakes of others. It's faster, easier, less painful and even though money is not a concern, cheaper. Besides, you can't live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself.

But, in the end, it's a free country. Pay your money, take your choice. Enjoy the journey, with or without road maps, guideposts or tollbooths.

That is impossible. It is batteries that will not allow that to ever happen. For each Kwh you use in a day battery cost of $1200 at today's prices and will need replaced in roughly 5 years. In that 5 years you will have used 1825 Kwh bring you Kwh cost to $0.66/Kwh. Your utility charges roughly 12 cents for the same power. In 5 years you replace the batteries at even higher cost and those higher cost will be in alignment with inflation. That makes it impossible to ever catch a payback.

Of course I think people here are more knowledgeable than myself. But I dont feel verbally abused at all, I'm thankful for every reply I get. I'm here to get advice and learn.

If anything I'm worried about people misunderstanding me.
For example, ofcourse money is a issue, but I didnt expect to build a full off-grid system cheaply. I was more hoping to do it in kind of modules.. Like a self managed payment plan or something Start small, see how it works out, learn from it, expand as possible.

It's not like I'm really looking to save money, it would be more about self-sufficiency, self-education, and heck... Why not about promoting all that, there really are little to none solar panels around here. All I've seen are the solar water heating panels.

That being said, I really do feel like utilizing solar in any practical way is a dead end to me right now.
That's not to say I wont try a project or few, even if they are just for fun, and thus probably on a much smaller scale.


Well, I didnt really mean that battery life would change depending on charging source. I was thinking that it would extend the life of a battery somewhat if the charge would always be kept medium-high, by utilizing grid for that, which wouldnt be dependable on sun or wind. The batteries would never be drained.

About the technology, everything is purely speculation. But I do have a feeling there will be critical steps in making the tech better, and more affordable in not so distant future.

EDITWell, yes, if the battery prices would remain the same in relation to income.
But batteries are getting cheaper. I'm not saying that what I said is a fact... But everything's possible. For all we know, in 5 years we all might be living in communist china.

I do not know where you came up with that but in 200 years batteries prices have never gone down, they only go up as it is a very mature technology. Batteries are a very energy intense product to manufacture and will alway be a multiple of the source fuel to make them. That source fuel is electricity made from NG, coal, or uranium. Battery prices only have one direction to move, UP like everything else.

One of the reasons you may be seeing more solar thermal applications is due to their likely better cost effectiveness with respect to solar electric. Sounds like less bureaucratic hassle as well.

Well, I might as well be wrong. But I guess "what I've heard" is that as the demand for batteries increases, so do the volumes, production tech. etc., in the end making batteries themselves cheaper. This I've read specifically about EV batteries, I am assuming this applies to all.

But I am far from being battery production expert, or any kind of vattery expert for that matter.

But what is really important here is not the price itself. But the affordability for average joe.

Yeah, definitely. Dont know about cost effectiveness... But its not like you're trying to sell warm water back to grid

The more you decrease local entropy, the more it costs. Warm water has less availability (or versatility) than electricity and therefore usually costs less to produce than electricity.