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  • New System: Price gouging or fair...

    Greetings everyone. First post here, and looking for a little guidance and input.

    Will develop a single-family residence at an off-grid site in Hawaii in an extremely sun-rich area. The PV system will need to supply both my residential needs as well as a reverse osmosis water filtration system (possibly up to 3 - 4kw).

    I have received a bid from a local contractor for $50k excluding installation. When I take the spec sheet and look at retail prices online, it seems that the equipment is valued at around $25k. Needless to say, I don’t think that delivery, installation and a healthy margin warrant another $25k. The main elements are:

    • 24 LG Optronics 265 High Efficiency Mono-crystalline PV panels
    • 1 Outback GS8048 inverter with a GSLC175 load center and HUB 10 controller, Flex Net DC monitor Flex Mex 80A controller
    • 1 Aquion Energy AHI M100 48V battery stack with 22 kwhs of usable storage

    Am I getting gouged or is this somehow reasonable?

    As for the Aquion Energy AHI M100 48V battery stack. From what I have read here and elsewhere, this is a novel and untested battery system from a new start-up that is just starting to go to market. And I am very apprehensive of being a guinea pig… especially for something that I am largely clueless about.

    Does anyone have personal experience with this system? Would you recommend it to a first-time Off-Grid owner?

    Thanks for the input!

    D.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Cult of Dionysus View Post
    Greetings everyone. First post here, and looking for a little guidance and input.

    Will develop a single-family residence at an off-grid site in Hawaii in an extremely sun-rich area. The PV system will need to supply both my residential needs as well as a reverse osmosis water filtration system (possibly up to 3 - 4kw).

    I have received a bid from a local contractor for $50k excluding installation. When I take the spec sheet and look at retail prices online, it seems that the equipment is valued at around $25k. Needless to say, I don’t think that delivery, installation and a healthy margin warrant another $25k. The main elements are:

    • 24 LG Optronics 265 High Efficiency Mono-crystalline PV panels
    • 1 Outback GS8048 inverter with a GSLC175 load center and HUB 10 controller, Flex Net DC monitor Flex Mex 80A controller
    • 1 Aquion Energy AHI M100 48V battery stack with 22 kwhs of usable storage

    Am I getting gouged or is this somehow reasonable?

    As for the Aquion Energy AHI M100 48V battery stack. From what I have read here and elsewhere, this is a novel and untested battery system from a new start-up that is just starting to go to market. And I am very apprehensive of being a guinea pig… especially for something that I am largely clueless about.

    Does anyone have personal experience with this system? Would you recommend it to a first-time Off-Grid owner?

    Thanks for the input!

    D.
    Caveat Emptor. Early adopters of new technology who are in areas unknown to them and also to those they are dealing with (new startup ?) often do not faire too well.

    Comment


    • #3
      I would have to agree with J.P.M. concerning new technology. The AHI or Aqueous Hybrid Ion technology is unique to Aquion Energy so finding information on existing systems my be hard.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cult of Dionysus View Post
        I have received a bid from a local contractor for $50k excluding installation. When I take the spec sheet and look at retail prices online, it seems that the equipment is valued at around $25k. Needless to say, I don’t think that delivery, installation and a healthy margin warrant another $25k. The main elements are:
        Based on the industry stats I've seen, it actually doesn't sound out of line for 50% of the total system cost to be labor, design, permits, etc. etc. etc. Installation is fairly labor-intensive, and there's a lot of red tape in the U.S. for solar.

        The installed cost/watt for your system is about $7.86, which is much higher than on the mainland (I paid $4.65/w for mine this spring, in Minnesota). But everything is more expensive in Hawaii, so this might be in the right ballpark.

        Edited to Add: Also, you have a battery and I don't, and batteries are expensive.
        16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

        Comment


        • #5
          In industry we almost always followed the rule of 2nd - you never want the first generation of anything unless you have no choice.

          It all too often becomes very expensive for no gain.
          [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

          Comment


          • #6
            To be clear, the $50k is excluding installation.

            Though I imagine the "installation cost" will be quite low, given the $50k equipment bid.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cult of Dionysus View Post
              To be clear, the $50k is excluding installation.

              Though I imagine the "installation cost" will be quite low, given the $50k equipment bid.

              You hopeless optimist, you.
              Paul

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cult of Dionysus View Post
                To be clear, the $50k is excluding installation.

                Though I imagine the "installation cost" will be quite low, given the $50k equipment bid.

                My mistake--I assumed when you wrote "excluding" it was a typo.

                In my experience, it's unusual for a PV installer to quote parts and installation separately. It also seems odd to provide a quote for materials and no quote for labor when the project is intended to include installation.

                I suggest you get some competing bids.
                16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

                Comment


                • #9
                  BTW, what is the difference between LG's Mono X panels and their multi-crystalline panels?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re the Aquion batteries - we've kind of covered them here before, but you had to have been a beta tester under an NDA agreement for test.

                    However, I wonder if you or the installers are operating under a Non-Disclosure-Agreement in regards to discussing the settings used to maintain them with the controllers (like voltages, amperages, times and such). If you ARE under an NDA, don't disclose that nda information here, but it would be interesting to find out if you have that restriction in the first place.

                    I also wonder if in the fine print you are restricted in other areas, such as only being able to use "Aquion authorized" installers for maintenance, or are you allowed to choose 3rd parties, or even yourself to maintain them, and still stay within warantee?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
                      Re the Aquion batteries - we've kind of covered them here before, but you had to have been a beta tester under an NDA agreement for test.

                      However, I wonder if you or the installers are operating under a Non-Disclosure-Agreement in regards to discussing the settings used to maintain them with the controllers (like voltages, amperages, times and such). If you ARE under an NDA, don't disclose that nda information here, but it would be interesting to find out if you have that restriction in the first place.

                      I also wonder if in the fine print you are restricted in other areas, such as only being able to use "Aquion authorized" installers for maintenance, or are you allowed to choose 3rd parties, or even yourself to maintain them, and still stay within warantee?
                      I certainly have no relationship with Acquion, but I think the guy who submitted the bid to my general contractor is the authorized dealer in Hawaii. Presumably he is under an NDA... If I felt like I was getting decent value, I might even try the new battery system, but I feel that I am not getting my money's worth with this bidder, so I will likely try elsewhere.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        One more question, largely unrelated and quite possibly the dumbest one that has been raised here in awhile, but are batteries needed when the sun is shining and panels are producing power? Or is it possible to draw power directly from the system?

                        For example, say I have a 6kWs of panels, it's the middle of the day with brilliant Hawaiian sunshine, and I'm running an oven, a dishwasher, tv, laundry machine, etc., say a total of 3kWs, will the batteries be at all involved (for arguments sake, assume they are already fully charged)?

                        In other words, is it possible to avoid needless battery cycles by consuming most of my power during periods of sunlight? This would of course mean I could also make do with fewer batteries, just enough to get me by a couple of nights (when consumption would be fairly limited, and assuming a generator for those rare few days of thick cloud cover).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cult of Dionysus View Post
                          One more question, largely unrelated and quite possibly the dumbest one that has been raised here in awhile, but are batteries needed when the sun is shining and panels are producing power? Or is it possible to draw power directly from the system?

                          For example, say I have a 6kWs of panels, it's the middle of the day with brilliant Hawaiian sunshine, and I'm running an oven, a dishwasher, tv, laundry machine, etc., say a total of 3kWs, will the batteries be at all involved (for arguments sake, assume they are already fully charged)?

                          In other words, is it possible to avoid needless battery cycles by consuming most of my power during periods of sunlight? This would of course mean I could also make do with fewer batteries, just enough to get me by a couple of nights (when consumption would be fairly limited, and assuming a generator for those rare few days of thick cloud cover).
                          1. It is possible to avoid battery cycling by using your major power consuming equipment during the day, and preferably close to solar noon. The panel current will go in part to the inverter and in part to the batteries for a small load, while the inverter will draw from the panels and the batteries together for a larger load. (But less current from the batteries than it would take if the panel current were not there.)
                          2. You still have to have the batteries. The off-grid inverter will need more current at some parts of the AC cycle than the panels will produce, since the panels are strictly current limited and have no energy storage capacity. It is possible to design an off-grid inverter that will produce say 1kW of power from a 2kW set of panels without having batteries connected, but nobody does that right now. And the inverter would shut down every time a cloud went by or a motor started up on the load side. (SMA incorporates just such a limited power stand alone inverter into their TL-xxxxUS grid tie inverter line.)
                          SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by inetdog View Post
                            1. It is possible to avoid battery cycling by using your major power consuming equipment during the day, and preferably close to solar noon. The panel current will go in part to the inverter and in part to the batteries for a small load, while the inverter will draw from the panels and the batteries together for a larger load. (But less current from the batteries than it would take if the panel current were not there.)

                            2. You still have to have the batteries. The off-grid inverter will need more current at some parts of the AC cycle than the panels will produce, since the panels are strictly current limited and have no energy storage capacity. It is possible to design an off-grid inverter that will produce say 1kW of power from a 2kW set of panels without having batteries connected, but nobody does that right now. And the inverter would shut down every time a cloud went by or a motor started up on the load side. (SMA incorporates just such a limited power stand alone inverter into their TL-xxxxUS grid tie inverter line.)
                            Indeed, will certainly still have bats, but mostly for nighttime and occasional rainy day capacity. So maybe 15-20kW rather than 40-60kW, with a generator as backup.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cult of Dionysus View Post
                              Indeed, will certainly still have bats, but mostly for nighttime and occasional rainy day capacity. So maybe 15-20kW rather than 40-60kW, with a generator as backup.
                              I think that you mean 15-20kWh, which is a measure of energy storage, rather than 15-20kW which is a measure of instantaneous power.
                              For a 48V system, 20kWh would be about 420AH capacity, while 20kW would be a current of 420A.
                              It is not too hard to build up a system with 420AH capacity, whatever the voltage. Just use 6V or lower batteries in series instead of 12V batteries in parallel.
                              SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

                              Comment

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