Solar heater inline w/ electric aux heater -- will this work?

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  • cdevidal
    Member
    • Apr 2014
    • 47

    Solar heater inline w/ electric aux heater -- will this work?

    I'd like to place one or more Gull Sol-R-Flow coil collector inline before my electric aux heater as a kind of a preheater. It may or may not supply all of our hot water, but any offset helps. I've been looking at different schematics and I've yet to see anyone do this. Well, some of the batch heaters have a somewhat similar schematic. It uses street water pressure to pump up to the roof, approximately 14 feet from the ground (average). I have pictured here just one Gull Sol-R-Flow heater but could inline more as necessary. I live in Jacksonville, FL where we get on average 15 freeze days per year. Not pictured are cutoff valves, drain valves, vacuum breakers, air vents, freeze protection, etc.

    Can you help me understand if it wouldn't work?

    My concerns:
    * Scaling over time with this open loop -- though I'm sure that's been covered elsewhere. How would I pump muratic acid? Unfortunately there are no docs for this on the company website. I'm sure I could ask though.
    * Would it even be worth it? Would water would push through so quickly, would it get hot at all? This is likely why direct systems often use a pump to circulate. That's why perhaps I'd be adding more coils. It may be up to Gull to answer this one as well.
    * Would it get too hot? This would be where the tempering valve would help, but would the hot water stagnate in the coils and pipes, turning to steam, etc.?
    * Freezes are a concern of course, but with only about 15 freeze days per year I could probably keep tabs on it. This is our main residence and we don't vacation much, but if I did I could drain it. Gull claims their coil heaters can withstand freezing and also I could heavily insulate any exposed pipe. Interestingly the pipe under the house is almost completely exposed today and in 12 years we haven't yet had any issues. So probably it doesn't get cold enough here. I've seen single digit overnights but those are very rare. Typically we'll get a few 20 degree nights during every winter.
    * What else am I not thinking of?

    Last edited by Mike90250; 04-14-2014, 09:13 AM.
  • Mike90250
    Moderator
    • May 2009
    • 16020

    #2
    I use a Rheem soalraid water heater before my tankless, to preheat water. I have a thermostatic mixer valve just before the tankless, to reduce water temp to 120F. Sunny days, my preheat water is +130F, so I burn little propane.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment

    • cdevidal
      Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 47

      #3
      Originally posted by Mike90250
      I use a Rheem soalraid water heater before my tankless, to preheat water. I have a thermostatic mixer valve just before the tankless, to reduce water temp to 120F. Sunny days, my preheat water is +130F, so I burn little propane.
      Looks like the Solaraide is a tank. Can you tell me more about your setup?

      Edit: Nevermind, I see the Solaraide name also covers collectors. Let me read more about this.

      Comment

      • cdevidal
        Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 47

        #4
        Mike90250, a thermosiphon like yours was the only somewhat similar arrangement to what I am proposing. However, I cannot place a 1000+lb collector on my roof and if possible I want to avoid using up precious ground space -- we're on a tiny lot -- so I hit on the idea of 110-330lbs of coils on the roof, per my original post. Do you think water would flow through so quickly it wouldn't have any effect? Would having more collectors make up for this?

        Comment

        • Naptown
          Solar Fanatic
          • Feb 2011
          • 6880

          #5
          I would install either a drain back or closed loop glycol system.
          Google eaglesun they are close to you.
          NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

          [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

          [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

          [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

          Comment

          • cdevidal
            Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 47

            #6
            Originally posted by Naptown
            I would install either a drain back or closed loop glycol system.
            Google eaglesun they are close to you.
            I've already emailed eaglesun for a quote. Why would you choose drain back/closed loop? Freeze protection? Any other reasons?

            Comment

            • cdevidal
              Member
              • Apr 2014
              • 47

              #7
              I've taken a closer look at Gull's website and it appears they have a kit designed to do precisely what I have in mind. I'll just direct my questions to them but if anyone still has input I welcome it

              Will try to update this thread as I get answers, for the sake of the next person who might try the same thing.

              Comment

              • Naptown
                Solar Fanatic
                • Feb 2011
                • 6880

                #8
                Originally posted by cdevidal
                I've already emailed eaglesun for a quote. Why would you choose drain back/closed loop? Freeze protection? Any other reasons?
                freeze protection and no scaling in the collectors.
                NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

                Comment

                • russ
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Jul 2009
                  • 10360

                  #9
                  Originally posted by cdevidal
                  I've taken a closer look at Gull's website and it appears they have a kit designed to do precisely what I have in mind. I'll just direct my questions to them but if anyone still has input I welcome it

                  Will try to update this thread as I get answers, for the sake of the next person who might try the same thing.
                  Their kits are a bit on the silly side - the amount of heat available is a joke except for a very small house - doll house maybe? Bad idea!
                  [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                  Comment

                  • cdevidal
                    Member
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 47

                    #10
                    Originally posted by russ
                    Their kits are a bit on the silly side - the amount of heat available is a joke except for a very small house - doll house maybe? Bad idea!
                    Each collector gives 11 gallons, which I'll admit is on the small side; But I've discovered they have a recirculating pump option, which I think I'll be going with. That negates the concern that the water won't be heated much passing through the coils quickly; As the temp in my electric aux tank gets low, and if the temp in the coils are high, it will recirculate the water until they are the same. Pretty smart idea, in theory. I may ask to see proof of concept though, and talk to an owner.

                    Comment

                    • russ
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • Jul 2009
                      • 10360

                      #11
                      Originally posted by cdevidal
                      Each collector gives 11 gallons, which I'll admit is on the small side;.
                      Learn how much water you need to recirculate and at what temperature. You need far more than these kits provide.

                      If you have adequate collector and storage then great - but these kits don't even come close.
                      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                      Comment

                      • Mike90250
                        Moderator
                        • May 2009
                        • 16020

                        #12
                        Originally posted by cdevidal
                        Mike90250, a thermosiphon like yours was the only somewhat similar arrangement to what I am proposing. However, I cannot place a 1000+lb collector on my roof and if possible I want to avoid using up precious ground space -- we're on a tiny lot -- so I hit on the idea of 110-330lbs of coils on the roof, per my original post. Do you think water would flow through so quickly it wouldn't have any effect? Would having more collectors make up for this?
                        I have a 20 gallon rooftop tank, with a glycol loop thermosiphon collector below it. I suppose the dimensions are on Rheems website. It comes with a 240V backup element (not connected). Rough guess, it's 3' x 4' or 12sq feet. That size of an efficient collector, gets the 20 gallon tank up to about 140F in 1 day. Smaller collectors, longer pipe runs, cllect less heat, and loose more. No pumps or anything, just a overtemp valve in the domestic side, if it gets too hot, it bleeds hot water till the system (& glycol) cools down enough. I went for simple and passive.
                        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                        Comment

                        • J.P.M.
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Aug 2013
                          • 14920

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Mike90250
                          I have a 20 gallon rooftop tank, with a glycol loop thermosiphon collector below it. I suppose the dimensions are on Rheems website. It comes with a 240V backup element (not connected). Rough guess, it's 3' x 4' or 12sq feet. That size of an efficient collector, gets the 20 gallon tank up to about 140F in 1 day. Smaller collectors, longer pipe runs, cllect less heat, and loose more. No pumps or anything, just a overtemp valve in the domestic side, if it gets too hot, it bleeds hot water till the system (& glycol) cools down enough. I went for simple and passive.
                          Batch heaters really do work. I built a breadbox type many yrs. ago w/out a glycol loop. They're about as simple as it gets. Looked funky but worked great. Needed to be drained for winter due to cold/cloudy climate (Buffalo, NY). See builditsolar website for a lot of similar ideas.

                          Comment

                          • cdevidal
                            Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 47

                            #14
                            Originally posted by russ
                            Learn how much water you need to recirculate and at what temperature. You need far more than these kits provide.
                            Good advice, but since we don't use a full 40 gallon tank today it should work; We hardly use any hot water right now, thanks to my wife's frugality. And I've shifted our usage so that 90+% of it is in the afternoon. Supposedly these will circulate until the temp in my aux tank is right, so this should in theory give 40 gallons.

                            But I don't have definitive numbers of our current usage, so my first task is to install a meter on my current electric heater to see what I use today. Without metering it I won't know for sure. Then I intend on adding components in stages until it offsets our usage by a reasonable amount. (Ideally 100% but I'll take what I can get.) Stage 1: One collector. Stage 2: Add a recirculating pump. Stage 3: Add another collector. I'm sure that'll give us SOME offset, but if not I can always eBay it

                            Found this page on installing a meter:

                            Comment

                            • cdevidal
                              Member
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 47

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Mike90250
                              I went for simple and passive.
                              The Rheem collectors are pricey. Did you choose it over something like a SunMaxx due to the name.
                              Last edited by russ; 04-17-2014, 10:07 AM.

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