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  • Sailboat Power

    I've been digging through posts trying to get a handle on MPPT controllers, how they vary voltage to put the most amps into batteries as efficiently as possible as well as high quality solar panels that I'm hoping can stand up to the harsh marine environment of sailing at sea. I'm hoping for some thoughts and guidance as I'm very new to this, but about to outfit my sailboat soon for a circumnavigation and would like to add a serious solar panel array to my pair of DuoGen wind generators. I'd like to be totally self-sufficient with just the solar panels and not consider any additional input from the wind generators other than how to hook the two systems together so that the MPPT controllers don't sense the additional load and cause inaccurate charging so that I always protect my batteries.

    Power for all needs on a 50 ft. sailboat:
    - I will have a total of between 6-8 MasterVolt AGM Super 8D batteries installed soon (12-volt, 270AH each)
    - I’m considering purchasing 6-8 Kyocera 300 watt solar panels (or larger as this changes quickly) to provide ample solar charging for these batteries based on my power consumption (1 panel per battery)
    - I’m considering purchasing 6-8 Morningstar TS-MPPT-45 controllers (1 for each panel at this point), some other MPPT controller, less than 6-8 if possible?
    - I will not have a generator onboard, but will have an inverter to provide power for a few A/C needs, but most items are D/C

    Configuration:
    1. Multiple battery banks to pull batteries out of the mix for house power until they are charged (Batteries prevented from dropping below 50% charge)
    2. Charging can happen for batteries both in and out of the mix for house power
    3. I’m willing to shell out bucks for heavy gauge wiring to provide a wider range of voltage for the MPPT controllers to facilitate charging from panels to batteries

    What is the best way to hook up multiple panels and multiple MPPT controllers to create an ideal system?

  • #2
    Originally posted by D_e_n_n_i_s View Post
    ...
    - I will not have a generator onboard, but will have an inverter to provide power for ....
    Plan on buying a new set of batteries every year.

    At night you have to have running/anchor lights, and in a cloudy week with no solar, you will murder the batteries.
    Please consider even a small honda eu1000 to power a backup battery charger. Yes, there are gasoline storage issues, but they can be dealt with. At some point dead batteries will not boot up the solar charger, and then you are goner.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment


    • #3
      Mike90250 - Thanks for the quick reply !!

      I will have a high-power alternator on the engine if I absolutely must put a charge on the batteries and will also have a pair of DuoGen wind generators, but I have already replaced my bow lights with an LED they make that replaces the standard bulb without replacing the whole fixture and have done the same thing to my stern light. I will do the same for all of my running and anchor lights. Just one 8D battery could power all of these small LED lights for years without a charge so that should not be an issue for me.

      I've looked into diesel generators (you don't want a gas generator onboard as diesel is MUCH safer) and even the VERY expensive ones that are highly efficient would be very expensive to use for powering A/C or Heat overnight - Figure 10 hours/night and not only is it ridiculously expensive (ignoring the purchase price), but replenishing the diesel would be a huge issue.

      Most people don't buy enough batteries to be fully self-sufficient, but I've done some serious power takeoffs and based on my numbers am putting a lot of money into buying many batteries. I plan to never let them drop below 50% charge and the 35% charge over that should be quicker than the final 15%, but I should have plenty of charging capability available to fully charge them, preferably before putting them back into the mix for "house" power.

      I'm really trying to understand the best way to hook up solar panels through MPPT controllers and how that when these are connected in different configurations how they interact and how to prevent them from sensing the other loads and/or prevent impacting charging and so that the batteries are always protected !! With different banks of batteries, multiple solar panels, multiple MPPT controllers, not to mention the wind generators (wind generators don't benefit from MPPT controllers the way that solar panels do so these will be hooked up with a load diverter instead for safety), I want to understand how best to hook everything up.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by D_e_n_n_i_s View Post
        I've looked into diesel generators (you don't want a gas generator onboard as diesel is MUCH safer) and even the VERY expensive ones that are highly efficient would be very expensive to use for powering A/C or Heat overnight - Figure 10 hours/night and not only is it ridiculously expensive (ignoring the purchase price), but replenishing the diesel would be a huge issue.
        Wait until you figure out how expensive solar will be. Diesel will be a lot less expensive, not to mention you will need another boat to tow around to carry all the panels and batteries.
        MSEE, PE

        Comment


        • #5
          Sunking - Great to hear from you !! I completely cracked up when I read your "So you Want To Go Off-Grid Battery" article - so hysterical because it's so true. I suspect that folks reading about 6-8 West Marine MasterVolt 8D batteries have no idea what they cost. For me, it's not about cost savings, but convenience to have electricity while I take my home around the world with me ... I'm looking for that kind of cold-hard-facts approach about how to connect everything up - put gently to me though ...

          Yep, JEA is a LOT cheaper than going solar, but again I really do realize the costs - or, at least, what I've priced out with 6-8 Kyocera 300 watt solar panels, MPPT controllers (figuring 1 per panel at this point), 6-8 MasterVolt Super 8D batteries, am bracing for outrageous wiring costs to get the gauge marine wiring I'll want to have ... oh yeah, so true. Hec, the pair of DuoGen Industrial wind generators were $6K, just dropped $5500 on an Aries windvane shipping out next week ... I'd be happy to go back to each week thinking that BOAT meant Bring Out Another Thousand ... those were the good old days .. lol

          I know you're very knowledgeable about all this stuff since I've seen your name for years and I seem to recall it was in various forums unless my mind is going too these days ... What do you think is the best way to hook all this stuff up, given the fact that I'm willing to spend the bucks to make it happen ?? Thanks !!

          Comment


          • #6
            What voltage are you looking at for batteries?

            My biggest concern is using expensive batteries in parallel as it is asking for trouble. If you know what you are doing you can put 2-strings in parallel for redundancy and maintenance. But big trouble if you disconnect one string for a day and reconnect.
            MSEE, PE

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sunking View Post
              What voltage are you looking at for batteries?

              My biggest concern is using expensive batteries in parallel as it is asking for trouble. If you know what you are doing you can put 2-strings in parallel for redundancy and maintenance. But big trouble if you disconnect one string for a day and reconnect.
              Wow, I should have specified that my system is 12-volt. I envision having batteries in individual banks with each bank of batteries connected with parallel connections so that the voltage remains at 12-volts for the entire system no matter which battery bank is brought online (Interconnected banks in parallel so no voltage increase as well). All D/C devices on the boat are 12-volts so I keep everything at 12-volts for simplicity and safety.

              Also, these are AGM batteries in case that makes a difference. I've had a pair of West Marine SeaVolt 8D AGM batteries hooked in parallel for years along with a pair of Seavolt Group 27 batteries as well with no problems. Why do you say it's asking for trouble? I would think changing up voltage on a system would be much more likely to cause a mistake at some point. Yep, that's gonna be a lot of pressure with serious amperage, but I do plan to mitigate that a bit with having 3 or 4 banks and only bringing online what I need to power a given set of appliances at any given time.
              Edit - The 8D's were connected in parallel and were never connected to the Group 27 batteries, which were also connected in parallel - Just to clarify ...

              The pair of 12-volt 8D batteries were never disconnected, but I will have a switch for bringing on various banks of batteries. Keeping them all in parallel should simply add more amperage when I bring them online and not cook a device that is expecting 12-volts. Just my thoughts ...

              Comment


              • #8
                Think about using the 60A version of the CC
                It will allow you to put 2 panels on one controller however you won't get individual MPPT on each.
                NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

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                • #9
                  Naptown - Great idea ... I don't think I recall seeing a 60A version at the time I was looking, but I'll certainly look again - Thanks !! This technology will keep you on your toes !!

                  Here is what I was figuring:

                  How do I size my charge controller:
                  Take the total wattage of your array (number of panels x watts per panel) and divide it by the voltage of your battery bank to get amps, then round up. The amp rating of your charge controller must exceed this number and it is usually recommended that it be 125% of this value.
                  320 Watts / 12v = 26.6666 x 1.25 (125%) = 33.3333 = 34 amp controller
                  35 amp controller per panel

                  I suppose 60 would be close, but I wonder if they make a 70-amp controller (I'll look around)? It seems that sharing 2 panels on 1 charge controller would be a good thing in terms of wiring, cost, etc. and still seems like it would be able to calculate a good point for charging even averaging from 2 panels, but I'm really just guessing there ...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    For Sunking:

                    MasterVolt AGM Batteries - $849.99 for 12-volt 270AH Group=Super 8D
                    Kyocera 300 Watt Solar Panel (320-Watt Max) - $439.08
                    Morningstar TS-MPPT-45 --> TriStar 45 Amp 12/24/48 Volt MPPT Charge Controller - $400.00

                    1 Battery = $849.99
                    1 Panel = $439.08
                    1 45-Amp Controller per Panel = $400.00
                    Total cost = $1689.07 (without tax) x .06 (6% state tax) = $1790.42
                    $1790.42 x 5 batteries = $8952.1
                    $1790.42 x 7 batteries = $12,532.94
                    $1790.42 x 12 batteries = $ 21,485.04

                    I'll just stop there and cry for awhile ... Cutting down controllers to 1 for every 2 panels saves $400 + a pop ...
                    Fishing and foraging to eat because I'll be broke ... cost of being free of Corporate America sooner than later
                    Having electricity in every port, including deserted islands ... priceless

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by D_e_n_n_i_s View Post
                      Naptown - Great idea ... I don't think I recall seeing a 60A version at the time I was looking, but I'll certainly look again - Thanks !! This technology will keep you on your toes !!

                      Here is what I was figuring:

                      How do I size my charge controller:
                      Take the total wattage of your array (number of panels x watts per panel) and divide it by the voltage of your battery bank to get amps, then round up. The amp rating of your charge controller must exceed this number and it is usually recommended that it be 125% of this value.
                      320 Watts / 12v = 26.6666 x 1.25 (125%) = 33.3333 = 34 amp controller
                      35 amp controller per panel

                      I suppose 60 would be close, but I wonder if they make a 70-amp controller (I'll look around)? It seems that sharing 2 panels on 1 charge controller would be a good thing in terms of wiring, cost, etc. and still seems like it would be able to calculate a good point for charging even averaging from 2 panels, but I'm really just guessing there ...
                      It will be a rare instance that you will get full wattage from a panel or panels.
                      I figured 600/12= 50A still at 125% of wattage under ideal conditions.
                      Put banks in parallel pairs with switching to the main panel for each 2 pairs using a battery switch.
                      Rotate your banks as you use them. each will be charged individually.
                      The beauty of this is you can use much smaller wires from the panels in series to the controller as it will allow an input voltage of 150V I'm thinking #10 or 12.
                      Then the only big wires you need are from CC to battery and battery to loads
                      So for design purposes add voltage of two panels to get Vmp Imp will be the same for two panels in series (voltage adds amps remain the same)
                      NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                      [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                      [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                      [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Gotcha - 60 amp MPPT controller should be fine in real world use ...

                        Aha - There's another great idea and exactly the kind of insight I was hoping for, but let me make sure I understand it correctly:

                        1. Connect 2 solar panels in series (thereby increasing voltage) TO MPPT Controller, allowing for smaller gauge wire
                        2. Connect MPPT controller to battery with heavier gauge wire

                        I'm guessing that the MPPT controller will sense the 12-volt battery load and charge it at 12-volts at higher amperage?

                        3. Repeat creating banks of PANELS this way.

                        When you note "Rotate your banks as you use them" are you talking about the BATTERY Banks? So I would have 3-4 SOLAR PANEL banks that would all be connected to the D/C Panel (through their respective MPPT controllers) ... All charging any BATTERY BANK switched to "feed" the D/C Panel.

                        I'll have to think on this a bit. I may set it up kind of like I set up my A/C battery charger where I used a separate 4-port panel so that I could flip my two 8D batteries to connect for charging, then I could cut those off and turn on the charging to my two Group 27 batteries because you always want to charge the same battery type with an A/C battery charger. Perhaps I could modify this for the additional SOLAR Panels (Not just a single A/C battery charger) and for the additional BATTERY Banks (Not just 2 banks). Interesting ...

                        That's just simple brilliance to hook the solar panels in series ...

                        Then, I suppose the MPPT controllers would all be hooked up in parallel ... No, just all hooked directly into a D/C charging panel? Um, let's talk about that part. I want to maintain 12-volts and let the amperage increase to the batteries from the MPPT controllers. Would each MPPT controller sense the others and change the charging curve ... whatever that means in reality ?? Reduces something, increases something else ... perhaps could damage the batteries ??

                        I should re-word "feed" the main battery panel with "connect to" the batteries through another channel such as a secondary, small panel. Batteries could feed the main panel and be charged whether or not they are actively feeding the main panel this way. I'm I losing it ??

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Dennis you cannot interconnect batteries in the manner you described. If you do you will set your boat on fire period. Each string voltage must be equal, exactly equal. If they are off say by more than 1/4 volt, and you connect then your wiring will catch on fire, and you will not be able to disconnect because what ever point you connect them (like a switch or disconnect) with will become welded together. The equalizing currents will be uncontrollable and far exceed the wire capacity.
                          MSEE, PE

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by D_e_n_n_i_s View Post
                            Gotcha - 60 amp MPPT controller should be fine in real world use ...

                            Aha - There's another great idea and exactly the kind of insight I was hoping for, but let me make sure I understand it correctly:

                            1. Connect 2 solar panels in series (thereby increasing voltage) TO MPPT Controller, allowing for smaller gauge wire Correct
                            2. Connect MPPT controller to battery with heavier gauge wire

                            I'm guessing that the MPPT controller will sense the 12-volt battery load and charge it at 12-volts at higher amperage? again correct

                            3. Repeat creating banks of PANELS this way.

                            When you note "Rotate your banks as you use them" are you talking about the BATTERY Banks? yes So I would have 3-4 SOLAR PANEL banks that would all be connected to the D/C Panel (through their respective MPPT controllers) ... All charging any BATTERY BANK switched to "feed" the D/C Panel. charging each individual bank use as charged

                            I'll have to think on this a bit. I may set it up kind of like I set up my A/C battery charger where I used a separate 4-port panel so that I could flip my two 8D batteries to connect for charging, then I could cut those off and turn on the charging to my two Group 27 batteries because you always want to charge the same battery type with an A/C battery charger. Perhaps I could modify this for the additional SOLAR Panels (Not just a single A/C battery charger) and for the additional BATTERY Banks (Not just 2 banks). Interesting ...

                            That's just simple brilliance to hook the solar panels in series ... not brilliant just a better way of doing things
                            Then, I suppose the MPPT controllers would all be hooked up in parallel ... no you will have a Cc connected to each bank so all charge when available No, just all hooked directly into a D/C charging panel? Um, let's talk about that part. I want to maintain 12-volts and let the amperage increase to the batteries from the MPPT controllers. Would each MPPT controller sense the others and change the charging curve ... whatever that means in reality ?? Reduces something, increases something else ... perhaps could damage the batteries ??

                            I should re-word "feed" the main battery panel with "connect to" the batteries through another channel such as a secondary, small panel. Batteries could feed the main panel and be charged whether or not they are actively feeding the main panel this way. I'm I losing it ??
                            comments in red
                            NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                            [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                            [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                            [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OK guys, you've been very informative and patient with me so try not to get frustrated with me as I try to wrap my head around all of this. We were all newbs at one time ... some of us still are

                              Sunking - "Cannot interconnect batteries that way" ... Do you mean having certain banks and/or all batteries connected to a main panel to supply power and have each bank also connected to all MPPT controllers through a secondary panel? Most small panels can't handle heavy enough wiring so I'm guessing that is what you mean. An issue with the amperage sending smoke signals?

                              For the record, I have my current bank of two 8D batteries hooked into the "House" side of my main panel with heavy battery sized cables - I believe it's 1/0, but certainly heavy gauge. Same thing for the pair of Group 27 batteries hooked to the "Engine" side of the D/C Panel. Of course, even though I significantly increased the wire size going from each panel switch to the board, that's the weakest part as it goes through volt/amp gauges (I just beefed these up, though not enough I suspect for 6-8 batteries) and then distributes to power bars and fuses.

                              I don't think you were referring to taking banks of individual batteries (hooked in parallel to each other) and hooking these banks together in parallel as this would maintain voltage while significantly increasing amperage. I am going to need to calculate what gauge wire to use in the event I ever wanted to connect all banks at the same time to the board ... That does seem scary ... Fortunately, I have a professional doing the battery installation for me (Why are you applauding that) ?? Hey, what are you sayin' ??


                              Rich - OK, MPPT controller senses 12-volt load kinda like what happens with wind generators ... The load dictates things so the batteries are always safe since they will only receive a charge that they can handle ... too simplistic ?? altogether wrong ??

                              Good - Rotating the battery banks ... We're on the same page there

                              Charge Controller hooked to each bank ... OK, I get that now with your edit for me, but let me ask you this. If you have a fully charged battery bank and two other battery banks that are at 50% charge, I was thinking that a flexible switching system (with sufficient gauge wire) could be used to dynamically take the charge controller's Panel bank originally connected to the fully charged bank of batteries and divert it to add extra charging power to the pair of discharged battery banks. This is where things get dangerous, but potentially more effective if done right.

                              For the record, I'll be sleeping in the forward berth, not in the aft berth over the batteries ... except maybe in the winter. Kidding ... kidding ...

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